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OC confrontation

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by swpost10, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. swpost10

    swpost10 SE Vancouver, WA Member

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    I was walking down a SE Ave and came
    on 4 black youths gathered at a bus stop taking up the whole sidewalk. I took the bike path giving them a wide berth. Unexpectantly one jumps up yelling an attack scream "Ha-hoo-huu"
    then the other 3 join in. 1-Would I have been justified placing my hand on my gun preparing to respond to an attack? 2-If an attack happened would I have been constrained to selecting just one in the pack or could I have targeted the whole Pack since they all provoked/targeted me and showed intent/cooperation? 3-All this happens in a heart-beat why are lawyers allowed YEARS to analyze it? 4-Are there low-cost/free legal defense attorneys/groups I can call on if the worst happens?
    I walked on and they did not follow. 5-Why ar
    some groups suicidal and provoke death: don't they know Hell awaits them? These were not teenagers, they were late 20's. They were acting like gradeschool bullies though. 6-I have more training than many and a lesser carrier may have responded with bullets: guess these bullies never consider their own mortality carelessing provoking death.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  2. MrNiceGuy

    MrNiceGuy between springfield and shelbyville Well-Known Member

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    There are bits of sandwich all over my laptop from when I burst in to laughter mid-bite.
    That made my day right there. Thank you.
     
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  3. Darknight

    Darknight Salem Active Member

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    6-I have more training than many and a lesser carrier may have responded with bullets:

    So, just out of curiosity, why then would you ask anyone on this forum? I have two words for anyone reading this post; MALL-NINJA. If anyone doesn't know what I am talking about, just google it. You will laugh a hell of a lot harder than after reading this post.
     
    keystir, darkminstrel, PaulZ and 3 others like this.
  4. Grunwald

    Grunwald Out of that nut job colony of Seattle, WA Well-Known Member

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    Gun or no gun, they must have been sensing 'victim'.
     
  5. Cuthbert Allgood

    Cuthbert Allgood Clark County, WA Well-Known Member

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    a very unpleasant, stern warning with a gun pointed at them would have probably done the trick if they had chosen to attack. if they all decided to ignore the gun pointed at them, chances are if you didn't act on shooting one or all, they had beaten you to the ground, taken your gun, and probably used it on you. in any instance, 1 vs. more than 1 is a potential life or death situation.

    then there is all the legal recourse after in incident as well as the potential of being labeled as a racist white devil.
     
  6. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    They never mess with me. They can sense a better predator. I've even heard a few of them say to their associates "Dude's strapped". (packing) But yes if you are mass attacked you can respond with lethal force.. if they come at you then shoot the closest one and the rest will almost certainly show you their butts and elbows. If they don't then take them by the numbers
     
  7. PaulZ

    PaulZ Oregon City Active Member

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    I deleted my original post. What I meant to say is; can you imagine how it feels to have people react with fear and loathing when they see you?
    Look people in the eye, smile and act like a man. Black or White, you will not have any trouble.
    Black folks are not all "predators".
     
    davemata and (deleted member) like this.
  8. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    No, but disproportionately younger black males are. Incarceration statistics for rape and other violent crimes speaks for itself. Some sharks won't bite you either but I bet you avoid them
     
  9. PaulZ

    PaulZ Oregon City Active Member

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    Incarceration statistics speak for a hell of a lot more than you think. You have to consider black on black crime for instance before you pee your camo tactical pants over it.
     
    aslinged, MikeE, Misterbill and 5 others like this.
  10. Doctnt

    Doctnt Beaverton Active Member

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    Did they have the following:

    Ability - Power to inflict or Disparity of force? Yes!

    Opportunity - Capable of immediately employing force or inflicting harm? Yes It takes 1.5 Sec to cover 20 feet.

    Jeopardy - By words or action were you threatened by death or grave bodily harm? I am not clear if what they said or even how they said it would meet this statue? Potentially if all they said was something to nonsensical to startle you or intimidate and you opened fire, you may find your self as a defendant in court.

    Tough to arm chair QB the incident but I can say, I am pleased you were armed and at least would be able to make the decision.
    Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6..
    Cheers,
    Doc
     
  11. swpost10

    swpost10 SE Vancouver, WA Member

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    My My I cannot believe those "laughing" replies to this post. Perhaps those have never had conflict in life. The only humours one was about being an obvious "preditor" and staring-down 4 threating young gang-wanta-bes. I posed (6) questions and only received 3 post-relavent replies: no one adressed individual questions; #1 was a big issue concerning ALL who OC and is VERY RELEVANT to everyone in this forum: will someone give an authoritive/knowledgable answere? If startled can you place your hand on your gun preparinng for an attack? Perhaps the other 5 questions are beyond the kern of this group. Thx
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  12. Doctnt

    Doctnt Beaverton Active Member

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    Short answer is Yes. You may place your hand on your holstered weapon, whether it is OC or concealed. Do a search on Massad Ayoob and look for some of his FAQ. He goes into this point fairly thoroughly. He also covers the question of, "If you are in a potentially dangerous area or situation, can you walk with your hand on your weapon ready to pull it.
    As long as you don't wrongfully brandish the weapon or tell someone you are going to shoot them then you remain the non aggressor.
    Cheers,
    Doc
     
  13. darkminstrel

    darkminstrel PDX Well-Known Member

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    I would have turned, stopped, looked at the one most focused on me and chuckled before slowly turning around and continuing on my way.

    Perhaps I would have said 'They say sharks can smell blood in the water a mile away. Did you know that, little fishies?' before drawing and riddling them full of holes.

    Or, more realistically, I would have looked at them to assess the threat and acted accordingly. If you OC and they made a move towards you then yes, drawing and politely asking 'What can I do for you?' would probably get them to chase easier targets. Disparity of force grants you the right to defense. Four on one is a death sentence if they chose to beat you without weapons. That would give you your legal justification in defending yourself from a charge of menacing(since OR doesn't have a brandishing law).
     
  14. Grunwald

    Grunwald Out of that nut job colony of Seattle, WA Well-Known Member

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    To answer your question, yes you could have placed your hand on your sidearm and if they made a move towards you drawn your weapon - if they were making threatning remarks.
    However my original comment stands. These guys likely read fear in your body language - or were just too stoned to know better.
     
  15. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    Sharks attacking other sharks does not speak to the issue of them attacking surfers.. and BTW this is from the last 24 hours, posted on Drudge and in no way the only crimes committed in the last 24 hours, just a more spectacular scenario

    UPDATE: Group commits assault, violent robbery on VCU's main campus | Richmond Times-Dispatch
     
  16. Aero Denezol

    Aero Denezol Salem Active Member

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    Ah yes.. this has happened to me too, in a fine restaurant in Scottsdale no less. One of them took a liking to my (then) girlfriend. She turned to me in terror... and I had a few tense words with this guy, who was easily taller and stronger than I was. Somehow he blamed me for the confrontation, if you can believe that.

    My opinion: if people don't like the stereotypes that are leveled against them, they should not perpetuate them by their behavior.. but I digress.

    No, I wouldn't have reached for my gun in that situation. You weren't injured, just startled. A*holes like doing that to people. I've learned that solid eye contact goes a long way towards discouraging punks.
     
    swpost10 and (deleted member) like this.
  17. billyinfinity

    billyinfinity Portland All pie, all the time. 2015 Volunteer

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    Attack scream? WTF is that? Did they actually do anything other than "take up the whole sidewalk" and then jump around, while shouting "Ha-hoo-huu"? I mean I wasn't there and can't judge, but from your description of the events, it sounds like some people were screwing with you for laughs and you automatically assume you were under attack. The fact that simply seeing 4 black youths "taking up the whole sidewalk" warrants a threatening situation and demands a wide berth leads me to believe you're already paranoid about life and maybe a bit of a bigot. Hell, they probably were just hanging out having fun and saw you looking them over and then going off the sidewalk to avoid them and realized you were doing it because you thought 4 black kids taking up the sidewalk must be trouble and so they decided to have fun with you. Maybe it wasn't the best move on their part, but I hope no one ever gets shot by you because you freak out over some innocuous event.. Next time just say "excuse me, guys" like a normal human being and walk past on the sidewalk.
     
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  18. osterr1999

    osterr1999 Silverton, OR Active Member

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    I do not open carry, but if I did, I would likely give a berth to a group of people if I could. No reason for allowing someone access to your firearm unless you have no other choice.

    As far as the group "having fun" with the OP, I defer to Clint Eastwood when he said, "Ever notice how you come across somebody once and a while you shouldn't have messed with, that's me."
     
  19. bikejunkie

    bikejunkie Salem Well-Known Member

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    You should have let them see your "war face!" "AAAAAHHHHHHH! That's my warface!"

    It's so hard to say what you had a right to do, or what I would have done- I think placing your hand on your weapon would have been reasonable and prudent given the disparity of force, but based on what you said happened drawing the weapon wouldn't have been legal. Of course if you had and the street vermin scattered I doubt they're filing a police report to say "Me and a group of buddies tried to scare/intimidate a random person on the street and when he made it clear he wasn't planning on being a victim by drawing a firearm we ran away- can you go arrest him?"
     
  20. Misterbill

    Misterbill Yakima County, Washington New Member

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    I suggest you read "Meditations on Violence" by Rory Miller.

    Amazon.com: Meditations on Violence: A Comparison of Martial Arts Training & Real World Violence (9781594391187): Rory Miller: Books

    What you witnessed is something he refers to as "The Monkey Dance" or in this case, Group Monkey Dance.

    You saw one group of monkeys targeting an outside lone monkey (you) with catcalls, which, if you had done something stupid, could have escalated into a conflict.

    As for the hand on the gun, thing, I have no way based on your rather vague description to make a judgement call. Ability, Opportunity and JEAOPARDY must ALL be present to indicate lethal force. Honestly it sounds like they saw you, made the (correct) assessment that you were intimidated by their presence and thought it would be funny to make you jump.

    Maybe next time you could acknowledge their presence by something other than moving into the street? Like saying "Hi?"

    Just a thought. Hard to tell from your description whether these were criminal predators or kids having a joke at your expense but it sounds like the latter.