Obama and Guns II

[CEF1959]

Since the thread I started, "Obama and Guns" has been closed, members have complained about a lack of forum for that discussion. So let me offer the following proposition for discussion, with the hope that it will result in a threat-free, insult-free exchange.

Obama has done nothing to come after our guns yet. But his history and political instincts suggest he would like to impose some restrictions if he ever gets around to it. He holds a more restrictive view of the Second Amendment than I do. Ammo restrictions, AWB, etc. could be in the offing. He's not likely to be pushing these issues soon, but he might jump on to someone else's proposal. So we should be vigilant. Not hysterical, but reasonable and vigilant. Hysteria just makes the pro-SA community look silly. And if you are on Condition Red full time, you have no additional reaction available if there really is a restrictive proposal. Obama is a pretty savvy politician who isn't eager to take us on. I'm keeping my powder dry, my pistol cocked and locked, and my eyes wide open.

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[speelyei]

well said.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

So we should be vigilant. Not hysterical, but reasonable and vigilant. Hysteria just makes the pro-SA community look silly.

That is exactly the point that needs made. All the hysterics and partisan posturing just serves to make gun rights advocates seem like right wing loons and turns public opinion against us...and public opinion is the only thing that stands as a barrier between us and new anti-gun laws. You can only cry wolf so many times before the villagers stop paying attention...and the once the villagers stop paying attention the wolf is free to do as he chooses.

 

[CEF1959]

Here's a telling chronology regarding the Assault Weapons Ban. That thing was in place for 10 years, from 1994 - 2004, and for the life of me I can't figure out how I was less safe in my home or more dangerous to government tyranny while it was in place. But I digress.

Candidate Obama was clearly in favor of reauthorizing the AWB: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,289373,00.html

After gaining office, AG Holder suggested the administration would push the idea: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/02/26/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4831751.shtml

But apparently he hadn't consulted Congress or the White House.

When asked about that, Pelosi said the Congress wasn't going there. She was more interested in other things. http://www.saysuncle.com/archives/2009/02/26/pelosi-on-the-assault-weapons-ban/

Then the White House made it official in April (less than three months ago): They aren't going to encourage reauthorization of the AWB. http://www.politicususa.com/en/Obama-Assault-Weapons-Ban

Finally, this quote from the Prez himself:

"I continue to believe that we can respect and honor the Second Amendment rights in our Constitution, the rights of sportsmen and hunters and homeowners who want to keep their families safe to lawfully bear arms." Barack Obama, April 17, 2009.

That's not to say the guy is a pro-gun advocate. I think he's just got a lot on his plate right now, needs to build coalitions, and had little interest in stirring this particular pot.

 

[Artilleryman]

bho's record is undeniable proof that he is anti 2nd Amendment. It's simply not politically expedient (at the moment) for him to pursue the issue.

 

[Dan-Dee Sales Inc]

"I continue to believe that we can respect and honor the Second Amendment rights in our Constitution, the rights of sportsmen and hunters and homeowners who want to keep their families safe to lawfully bear arms." Barack Obama, April 17, 2009.

He believes in the right to own a shotgun or hunting rifle. I am pretty sure that he does NOT believe that the big bad black gun is protected by the 2nd amendment.

 

[CEF1959]

He believes in the right to own a shotgun or hunting rifle. I am pretty sure that he does NOT believe that the big bad black gun is protected by the 2nd amendment.

I think that's right. And he surely doesn't think the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to own RPGs, selective fire weapons, .50 cal. machine guns, and tactical nukes.

But most people probably want to draw the line somewhere. On a spectrum from slingshot to ICBM, one has to ask: How much of that is protected for individual possession by the SA? Unless you say "all" or "none", you're just disagreeing about where to draw the line.

And if you're among those to say that the SA guarantees the keeping and bearing of any any weapon whatsoever, consider the implications of guaranteeing people you may despise having a constitutional right to a tactical nuke or unlimited numbers of RPGs.

 

[Trlsmn]

I think that's right. And he surely doesn't think the Second Amendment guarantees an individual's right to own RPGs, selective fire weapons, .50 cal. machine guns, and tactical nukes.

But most people probably want to draw the line somewhere. On a spectrum from slingshot to ICBM, one has to ask: How much of that is protected for individual possession by the SA? Unless you say "all" or "none", you're just disagreeing about where to draw the line.

And if you're among those to say that the SA guarantees the keeping and bearing of any any weapon whatsoever, consider the implications of guaranteeing people you may despise having a constitutional right to a tactical nuke or unlimited numbers of RPGs.

Why shouldn't I be able to own a Selective fire weapon? The incidence of licensed machine guns being used to commit crimes is virtually zero, why should I lose my right to own one because some knee jerk is afraid of them? How many crimes are committed with a .50 cal?

The legality of RPGs, Nukes, Hand Grenades, and Explosives etc.. isn't really a serious discussion so why even group them in other than for shock value?

 

[fromotoc]

Why shouldn't I be able to own a Selective fire weapon?

+1, although you can own one now.

 

[Jamie6.5]

My question goes the other way.
CEF and the Penguin are obviously supporters of Obama's, so I ask you guys, and all registered dems too for that matter:

How much of a push for gun control will it take for you to vote against him in 2012? Against Dem majority in Congress in 2010?
Is it not that big of a deal for you guys? Will You put up with it if you get the social/enviro/healthcare/end of war/global standing issues you want?
Are you gonna toe the party line? Abstain? Vote them out?

Give us an idea of this issue's importance with you.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

How much of a push for gun control will it take for you to vote against him in 2012?

I am afraid I do not base my voting on a single issue like gun control. I am not someone that will sit back and let my civil rights be stomped upon, have my right to due process removed, have a women's right to chose taken away, have my phones tapped without warrants, have illegitimate wars started in my name and so forth as long as the politicans praise Jesus and hold a rifle while doing it.

As long as I agree with the majority of a parties platform I will be willing to vote for them and fight them on the one or two things we disagree upon. I am not so ignorant or short sighted that I can be easily placated with something like lip service to gun rights while ignoring the bigger picture.

Just what did the last administration do for gun owners anyway besides let a bill expire? They had six solid years of total control. Seems like they could have passed some great pro-gun laws if they are actually so gun friendly.

 

[Trlsmn]

My question goes the other way.
CEF and the Penguin are obviously supporters of Obama's, so I ask you guys, and all registered dems too for that matter:

How much of a push for gun control will it take for you to vote against him in 2012? Against Dem majority in Congress in 2010?
Is it not that big of a deal for you guys? Will You put up with it if you get the social/enviro/healthcare/end of war/global standing issues you want?
Are you gonna toe the party line? Abstain? Vote them out?

Give us an idea of this issue's importance with you.

I'm not yet convinced CEF is an Obama supporter. Though his questioning might lead some to beleive he is, he hasn't stated that he is nor does his questioning imply he believes Obama isn't out to take our guns.

Penguin on the other hand seams to let himself be divided by the Democrats Altruistic, Republicans evil, divide and conquer strategy.

Myself I have always stated that I follow the Trlsmn party line and that Dems and Reps are a 2 headed snake both harming our country.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Penguin on the other hand seams to let himself be divided by the Democrats Altruistic, Republicans evil, divide and conquer strategy.
.

Once again you speak out of turn. I am a long time registered republican. I campaigned for Reagan and Bush I. The only democrat I have ever considered voting for for POTUS is Obama...and I would not have done that if not for Palin.

These days I see my self as more if an independent because of the corruption of the core of the GOP by the Neo-Cons. I am one of the Americans hoping for a viable third party in the near future.

 

[Trlsmn]

I am afraid I do not base my voting on a single issue like gun control. I am not someone that will sit back and let my civil rights be stomped upon, have my right to due process removed, have a women's right to chose taken away, have my phones tapped without warrants, have illegitimate wars started in my name and so forth as long as the politicans praise Jesus and hold a rifle while doing it.

All of which passed through with the support of Democrats too

As long as I agree with the majority of a parties platform I will be willing to vote for them and fight them on the one or two things we disagree upon. I am not so ignorant or short sighted that I can be easily placated with something like lip service to gun rights while ignoring the bigger picture.

And what has or will the BHO admin do to improve this bigger picture?

Just what did the last administration do for gun owners anyway besides let a bill expire? They had six solid years of total control. Seems like they could have passed some great pro-gun laws if they are actually so gun friendly.

Neither party has your best interest in mind this is why I am an independent and a centrist.

 

[Trlsmn]

Once again you speak out of turn. I am a long time registered republican. I campaigned for Reagan and Bush I. The only democrat I have ever considered voting for for POTUS is Obama...and I would not have done that if not for Palin.

These days I see my self as more if an independent because of the corruption of the core of the GOP by the Neo-Cons. I am one of the Americans hoping for a viable third party in the near future.

You fail to see that both parties are corrupt and have their self own interests in mind not ours.

 

[Trlsmn]

Once again you speak out of turn. I am a long time registered republican. I campaigned for Reagan and Bush I. The only democrat I have ever considered voting for for POTUS is Obama...and I would not have done that if not for Palin.

These days I see my self as more if an independent because of the corruption of the core of the GOP by the Neo-Cons. I am one of the Americans hoping for a viable third party in the near future.

Another job on your resume? How old are you?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

All of which passed through with the support of Democrats too

Not really, most of the stuff I mentioned was done without congressional knowledge and a lot of it is being attempted via grass roots conservative measures. As for the stuff that did pass congress, you should read some of the books regarding those years of republican control and some of the methods they used to garner support and the deals they made and never honored. I would also like to know how 38 dems made any difference in the process.

And what has or will the BHO admin do to improve this bigger picture?

He has already done a great deal to improve our standing with other nations and is starting to make a dent in the economy. How about we give him at least a year before crying foul. That is not a very fair thing to do..wouldn't you agree?

Neither party has your best interest in mind this is why I am an independent and a centrist.

Really? Because you come across as just another boring old partisan basher. Maybe I have missed all the posts from you complaining about republican officials and how they seem bent on just stalling the nation at this time.

 

[Trlsmn]

Who are these hypocrites verbally making the case for Invading Iraq?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5p-qIq32m8&feature=related

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Who are these hypocrites verbally making the case for Invading Iraq?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5p-qIq32m8&feature=related

Yeah, that all seems pretty bad when you do not take into account the fact they were being fed doctored intel and downright false information at the time. It gets a little less damning when you start looking a little deeper and remember things like Colin Powell holding up a vial of anthrax and showing fake pictures of biological weapons bases while lying to the UN. When you forget he even resigned because of the lies when it started getting out. When you remember how many intel specialists at the Pentagon resigned or were forced out when they spoke up about the lies and false intel.

A little context is usually all it needs to dispel such blatant partisan smear jobs as the one you just posted.

 

[Trlsmn]

Not really, most of the stuff I mentioned was done without congressional knowledge and a lot of it is being attempted via grass roots conservative measures. As for the stuff that did pass congress, you should read some of the books regarding those years of republican control and some of the methods they used to garner support and the deals they made and never honored. I would also like to know how 38 dems made any difference in the process.

Really like what? taking away a woman's right to chose? You wrote a big paragraph there but didn't really say anything.

He has already done a great deal to improve our standing with other nations and is starting to make a dent in the economy.

Where has our world standing improved what has he done?

How about we give him at least a year before crying foul. That is not a very fair thing to do..wouldn't you agree?

A lot of damage will be done in a year, when have Dems ever cut the GOP slack?

Really? Because you come across as just another boring old partisan basher. Maybe I have missed all the posts from you complaining about republican officials and how they seem bent on just stalling the nation at this time.

I've mention that the Reps and Dems are a 2 headed snake more times than I remember. This forum is centered around Gun politics, other political views and discussions are swiftly discouraged so I don't bring up other relevant politics (to me).

I would like to think that the people that know me from less family (PG) rated forums know me as anything but boring and stuffy. My kind of humor is hard to express under the constraints of the rules here so I don't let it off the leash often here.