No training at all.

[oldcorpgunny]

When I was a very young L/Cpl in the USMC, back in 1965, we were instructed in the use of the "new" M-16 rifle. We hadn't been issued the weapon, but I knew how to use it. We were also advised that we would NOT be using the rifle in it's full-auto capability. Marines were trained extensively in marksmanship and also to only fire on an identified target. Generally speaking, Marines in Vietnam didn't usually run out of ammunition because of the "spray & pray" attitude that was so prevalent amongst the ARVN and other U.S. forces. That being said and a matter of historical fact, let me bring us to the here and now. It seems that virtually everyone is carrying some kind of handgun, either for self defense or to perpetrate a crime. Most of these folks have no training at all. In the past, I have arrested "bad guys" with any number of revolvers and automatics with the wrong ammunition in their pockets. I once discovered a loaded 12 gauge single shot shotgun with a 20 gauge slug already in the barrel. I'm not suggesting that all the bad guys are fools, rather I'm pointing out that most of them are. The same dynamics apply to honest, law-abiding citizens that have been forced to carry firearms in defense of their own lives and property. Many of us are senior adults with health issues. Some even have memory problems. Others are young and healthy, but have never considered everything involved in drawing and firing a weapon. Questions like; should there be a round in the chamber (it seems safer, but is it?), what is situational awareness? Can I escape without having to use my weapon? Have I spent lots of time on a range learning about the capabilities of my firearm of choice? Am I truly comfortable carrying a device that can kill another person(s)? Lots of questions. Now what do you do if you come out of the local MiniMart just as a bad guy has already fired several rounds at a member of an opposing gang, race, ethnic minority, political party or ??? Suppose a concerned citizen aged 47 years old, with no training, carrying a Glock 19 with a high capacity magazine, decides that he will intervene in this dispute and fire some shots of his own. What do you do, as a well trained concealed carry permitted bystander? Drop your Bud Lite, loaf of bread and bag of Dorito's? The shots are going everywhere because the gang-bangers don't care and aren't trained and so are the shots of the well intentioned middle aged concerned citizen. Innocents are being hit and it's complete chaos. Do you shoot all of the participants, some of them, none of them or do you run into the store and call 911 so that they can take a report?

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[Member 53328]

Toss a couple grenades and I'm out.

 

[titsonritz]

Don't assume badguys/gang bangers have no training, plenty have been trained by the US military.

https://www.gangenforcement.com/gangs-in-the-military.html
https://www.liveabout.com/gang-activity-in-the-u-s-military-3354199
https://www.military.com/daily-news...ctivity-increasing-internal-report-shows.html

I don't train for the bozos that put the wrong ammo in their weapons, I train for the guys that train like I do.

 

[s1xty7]

Unless my family or I are being immediately targeted, I have no intentions of being the hero. I'm getting out of the way and calling 911. Possibly recording the incident if that seems safe. I don't carry to be the enforcer of right and wrong, but to live another day.

 

[TTSX]

There are also a lot of people with bad training. Which is arguably worse than no training

 

[titsonritz]

Unless my family or I are being immediately targeted, I have no intentions of being the hero. I'm getting out of the way and calling 911. Possibly recording the incident if that seems safe. I don't carry to be the enforcer of right and wrong, but to live another day.

https://www.midwestorion.com/products/hand-gun-cell-phone-video-camera-mount

 

[ma96782]

Question from a Reporter: Why do people engage in crime?

Answer from a police officer/friend: It's because they're LAZY.

LOL. YES, it got printed.

++++++++++++

Anyway......back to the OP's post. Yeah.....LAZY CRIMINALS.
BUT, But, but......can you/do you really expect them.......to apply themselves through hard work or to do a bit of research, in order to be successful in life?



Yeah......probably just looking for the EASY WAY.




Aloha, Mark

 

[oremike]

Seems to me a lot of people these days get their firearms training from Call of duty, Grand Theft Auto and other shootem' up video games.

 

[titsonritz]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It doesn't say anything about training. The problem is too many generations have gotten away from firearm ownership and use and thus forgotten the awesome responsibility that goes with it.

 

[Member 53328]

There are also a lot of people with bad training. Which is arguably worse than no training

Many of which are legally carrying a gun amongst us……

Those people are a liability. Not an asset.

 

[WillametteWill]

One of my favorite topics, also probably gets me put on ignore lists. I believe it was KR Training in Texas that looked at follow up training by those who took the initial required (at that time) CHL / permit to carry class. It was at 1%.

I'm in the camp that you should take extra training but not be required to. This is because who decides what the training looks like, Kate or Kate pt. 2? I'll go with dangerous freedom. It's about reducing risk exposure (situational awareness) and mitigation (firearms and other SD training). Navy Seals still get shot and some with no training / experience still win gunfights. But we increase our odds by training, learning, practicing, especially in area we are weak. Going to the range and spending an hour on Mozambique drills may be fun, but training should be challenging (and it can be fun too).

I'll use one of your example...do you drop the 6 pack, Doritos and loaf of bread? Watch videos of shootings. Most people will not, or their cellphones. Does anyone practice this? We (wife and I) and our students do. But not as sexy as Bill Drills. Great topic, looking forward to what others have to say.

 

[deadeye]

When I took my class, it included live fire at an indoor range along with knowing how to handle the pistol/revolver, load mag, insert mag or cartridges in revolver, shoot dominate and weak sides as well as point and shoot without hitting the head. There were a couple of them that you could tell were not very confident in some of the aspects but by the end of the class they were. I really didnt need the live fire part as I had been shooting for many of my younger years already.
The important aspect is continuing to practice or at least going shooting to engrain it so that under stress it isnt such an issue. Even supposedly trained police shoot innocent bystanders quite a bit. Myself, if someone else is already engaged with the threat and I can get outta dodge that's what I'm doing. I dont want them thinking/reacting like I am also a threat, same as when the police show up.

 

[titsonritz]

I'll use one of your example...do you drop the 6 pack, Doritos and loaf of bread? Watch videos of shootings. Most people will not, or their cellphones. Does anyone practice this? We (wife and I) and our students do. But not as sexy as Bill Drills. Great topic, looking forward to what others have to say.

Yes, I do. When I carry a six pack I use three fingers through the handle with my index and thumb around a single, I drop the six pack as I throw or strike with the single while I drawing.

Whatever is my hands is going in their face (unless it is a child, but those days are behind me.)

 

[Member 53328]

One of my favorite topics, also probably gets me put on ignore lists. I believe it was KR Training in Texas that looked at follow up training by those who took the initial required (at that time) CHL / permit to carry class. It was at 1%.

I'm in the camp that you should take extra training but not be required to. This is because who decides what the training looks like, Kate or Kate pt. 2? I'll go with dangerous freedom. It's about reducing risk exposure (situational awareness) and mitigation (firearms and other SD training). Navy Seals still get shot and some with no training / experience still win gunfights. But we increase our odds by training, learning, practicing, especially in area we are weak. Going to the range and spending an hour on Mozambique drills may be fun, but training should be challenging (and it can be fun too).

I'll use one of your example...do you drop the 6 pack, Doritos and loaf of bread? Watch videos of shootings. Most people will not, or their cellphones. Does anyone practice this? We (wife and I) and our students do. But not as sexy as Bill Drills. Great topic, looking forward to what others have to say.

Personally I avoid carrying anything in my left hand as it is my dominant shooting hand. If my right hand is full and I am wearing a jacket I normally will unzip it to allow easier access to my waist line. I try to think/be multiple steps ahead as much as I possibly can.

Left of Bang.

 

[bradsteen]

Now what do you do if you come out of the local MiniMart just as a bad guy has already fired several rounds at a member of an opposing gang, race, ethnic minority, political party or ??? Suppose a concerned citizen aged 47 years old, with no training, carrying a Glock 19 with a high capacity magazine, decides that he will intervene in this dispute and fire some shots of his own. What do you do, as a well trained concealed carry permitted bystander? Drop your Bud Lite, loaf of bread and bag of Dorito's? The shots are going everywhere because the gang-bangers don't care and aren't trained and so are the shots of the well intentioned middle aged concerned citizen. Innocents are being hit and it's complete chaos. Do you shoot all of the participants, some of them, none of them or do you run into the store and call 911 so that they can take a report?

First preference would be to evade/escape the situation. In that scenario the defender seems to present just as much of a threat to me as the aggressor. Not my monkeys, not my circus, not worth dying for.

if unable to escape I would seek cover or concealment and engage anybody shooting at me. Doesn't matter if they are allegedly a good guy or bad guy. If I'm in a position of cover and can issue verbal commands, great. If not and they're throwing lead at me, then they are presenting a threat of death or serious bodily harm, which means they go down.

 

[WillametteWill]

Yes, I do. When I carry a six pack I use three fingers through the handle with my index and thumb around a single, I drop the six pack as I throw or strike with the single while I drawing.

Whatever is my hands is going in their face (unless it is a child, but those days are behind me.)

To be clear (should have started with this) I KNOW many folks on this site do all kinds of training. My comments are for the great unwashed masses outside Northwest Firearms (the 99% opposite the 1%).

Personally I avoid carrying anything in my left hand as it is my dominant shooting hand. If my right hand is full and I am wearing a jacket I normally will unzip it to allow easier access to my waist line. I try to think/be multiple steps ahead as much as I possibly can.

Left of Bang.

If we were caught with anything casually in our non-gun hands in the academy it was big trouble. Never stopped this practice. Great point. As is your mention of thinking ahead. Most people play checkers, not chess.

 

[Member 53328]

To be clear (should have started with this) I KNOW many folks on this site do all kinds of training. My comments are for the great unwashed masses outside Northwest Firearms (the 99% opposite the 1%).


If we were caught with anything casually in our non-gun hands in the academy it was big trouble. Never stopped this practice. Great point. As is your mention of thinking ahead. Most people play checkers, not chess.

If one's only plan is to react to a scenario on a seconds notice they are already losing. I want to live/avoid conflict so proper training and planning is key in my life.

If one thinks they are simply going to rise to the occasion (because of adrenaline/call of duty/I saw it on YouTube, etc) they are going to be in a world of hurt.

We don't rise to the occasion but fall to our level of training.

 

[ma96782]

Q : Is it the OP's answer? Or is he just pushing for MANDATORY training for all "wanna-be" firearms owners?

Yeah......some people would LOVE THAT as an added requirement.

Aloha, Mark

 

[Cavedweller]

We were also advised that we would NOT be using the rifle in it's full-auto capability. Marines were trained extensively in marksmanship and also to only fire on an identified target. Generally speaking, Marines in Vietnam didn't usually run out of ammunition because of the "spray & pray" attitude that was so prevalent amongst the ARVN and other U.S. forces. That being said and a matter of historical fact...

What you say may be true, I was not in The Nam so I don't know. But I have read accounts of those who were there and faced human wave attacks by the VC/NVA, and stated that they were only able to save their positions from being completely overrun by being able to fire as fast as they could load on full auto. So, there's that.

Now what do you do if you come out of the local MiniMart just as a bad guy has already fired several rounds at a member of an opposing gang, race, ethnic minority, political party or ??? Suppose a concerned citizen aged 47 years old, with no training, carrying a Glock 19 with a high capacity magazine, decides that he will intervene in this dispute and fire some shots of his own. What do you do, as a well trained concealed carry permitted bystander?

Seek cover and let the criminals kill each other. Try to observe as much as possible to aid law enforcement in identifying the guilty parties. If a poorly trained "good guy with gun" decides to intervene, I would wish him good luck with that.

And if a well trained Gunnery Sergeant expert marksman and hero of Viet Nam happened to be present and started picking off the participants one by one, I would cheer him on!

 

[Certaindeaf]

Many of which are legally carrying a gun amongst us……

Those people are a liability. Not an asset.

So that's code you voted for 114?