Minister of Propaganda - M. Kelly

[simon99]

The 2nd from Wikipedia
Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"...There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with capitalization or punctuation differences. Differences exist between the drafted and ratified copies, the signed copies on display, and various published transcriptions.[16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23] The importance (or lack thereof) of these differences has been the source of debate regarding the meaning and interpretation of the amendment, particularly regarding the importance of the prefatory clause.
One version was passed by the Congress,[24][25][26][27][28]
As passed by the Congress and preserved in the National Archives:[29]
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State:[30]
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. "

I propose compromise to keep that jackboot away from our doors!

Can you, just for once, do some research on the history of man when they compromised their rights of self preservation?

Hundreds of millions that have died at the hands of their aggressors due to your twisted definition of compromise are crying out to you....

 

[duane black]

I'm not sure what rights you lost in CA?

Start researching the calguns wiki " Time line of California Firearms Laws " for a starter.

Next ...

Take a look at the George Mason University " Freedom in the 50 states " where California is ranked 49.

Finally, I strongly encourage you to live there, just to get a taste of all that " freedom ".

Some advice if you decide to take the plunge into the liberal utopia :

Don't forget to get your license within 10 days after your arrival, I would try to make an appointment at DMV as the wait may exceed 2 hours otherwise. You have 20 days to register your car, do not forget the SMOG check. If your vehicle is modified, it might be best to leave in Oregon unless the parts are CARB compliant. If you bring any firearms, they will need to be registered with the CALDOJ within 60 days. Make sure you check the calguns assault weapons flow chart if you are bringing in any long guns, this will keep you out of state prison, maybe. Sell all magazines that hold in excess of 10 rounds, bad juju to import these.

I would look at the California roster of approved handguns and make sure you bring anything not on it , with you, otherwise you will never own it again as a California resident. I would strongly encourage you to move to an area where the county Sheriff is friendly to concealed carry, unfortunately job opportunities may be non existent in these areas but this is the ONLY way to protect your family outside of the home. California aint Oregon BTW, you DO need a gun in most areas.

See where I am going with this ? I could go all bubbleguming day. This all started with small incremental changes to law, like you are proposing in this thread.

No thanks.

Keep Oregon and Washington, Oregon and Washington. Hell, lets take the NW back to the 50's.

 

[bugeye]

You are implying that all of the law abiding citizens are somehow the same as criminals. Just what is your motive on this forum? Is this some form of mental masturbation for you?

Yes, scumbags in the minds of our opponents. Did you really miss that point, or is this some form of mental masturbation for you?

 

[bugeye]

Start researching the calguns wiki " Time line of California Firearms Laws " for a starter.

Next ...

Take a look at the George Mason University " Freedom in the 50 states " where California is ranked 49.

Finally, I strongly encourage you to live there, just to get a taste of all that " freedom ".

Some advice if you decide to take the plunge into the liberal utopia :

Don't forget to get your license within 10 days after your arrival, I would try to make an appointment at DMV as the wait may exceed 2 hours otherwise. You have 20 days to register your car, do not forget the SMOG check. If your vehicle is modified, it might be best to leave in Oregon unless the parts are CARB compliant. If you bring any firearms, they will need to be registered with the CALDOJ within 60 days. Make sure you check the calguns assault weapons flow chart if you are bringing in any long guns, this will keep you out of state prison, maybe. Sell all magazines that hold in excess of 10 rounds, bad juju to import these.

I would look at the California roster of approved handguns and make sure you bring anything not on it , with you, otherwise you will never own it again as a California resident. I would strongly encourage you to move to an area where the county Sheriff is friendly to concealed carry, unfortunately job opportunities may be non existent in these areas but this is the ONLY way to protect your family outside of the home. California aint Oregon BTW, you DO need a gun in most areas.

See where I am going with this ? I could go all bubbleguming day. This all started with small incremental changes to law, like you are proposing in this thread.

No thanks.

Keep Oregon and Washington, Oregon and Washington. Hell, lets take the NW back to the 50's.

No one has rights to a sensible and efficient DMV!
Until the gun laws in CA are held to be unconstitutional they aren't legally a loss of rights either.

CA 38 million people in it, too crowded for me, I can barely drive through Beaverton without a breakdown!

 

[PiratePast40]

You hold on to the idea that you are the only one with a valid opinion and the rest of us are the great unwashed. Neville Chamberlin had ideas similar to yours, and you're saying the same thing. "If we just give them what they want, even if it's wrong, everything will be alright".

 

[simon99]

You hold on to the idea that you are the only one with a valid opinion and the rest of us are the great unwashed. Neville Chamberlin had ideas similar to yours, and you're saying the same thing. "If we just give them what they want, even if it's wrong, everything will be alright".

Liberal trolls always feel that they have the only valid opinion...didn't you know?

 

[bnsaibum]

Yes, scumbags in the minds of our opponents. Did you really miss that point, or is this some form of mental masturbation for you?

Are you sure you aren't looking in a mirror on this one?

So that you know; There was a time where I thought much as you seem to think about compromise and the 2nd Amendment. That was because I wasn't evaluating the issue with a mind to critical thinking. You have to stop identifying with either side and look at it from every angle. Get your ego out of the way and use your brain.

 

[duane black]

No one has rights to a sensible and efficient DMV!
Until the gun laws in CA are held to be unconstitutional they aren't legally a loss of rights either.

CA 38 million people in it, too crowded for me, I can barely drive through Beaverton without a breakdown!

You are missing the point about the DMV, it's not just firearms laws that are bubblegumed up in the state. The state has it's hands in every aspect of your life, and your pockets. Research CARB ( California Air Resources Board ) for those not in the know, this agency wanted to ban black cars a while back...

I'm just giving you a little insight. ALL of it started with little well meaning laws.

I understand your point about rights lost in California, I would like to point out that the 9th circuit just bubblegum slapped the state in regards to not allowing carry of firearms openly, or concealed. I would like to repeat, the 9TH CIRCUIT.



Here is what freedom in the 50 states has to say about Oregon :

" Oregon remains the second-freest Pacific state, but it earned the dubious distinction of having the greatest loss of freedom in the country over the last two years. The state saw increases to its debt level, spending, taxes, and health insurance mandates. "

That pisses me off. It should piss you off too.

No more BS laws that will have ZERO effect on crime, you are only putting yourself ( and your neighbors ) in chains by supporting this stuff.

It will have ZERO effect on crime. If you think I am wrong, I challenge you to show me where the 10 day mandatory wait, CALDOJ AND NICS background check has kept crime in check in California. Post this information in the Calguns 2nd amendment forum while you are at it, I am sure they would LOVE to know as well.

Look at Stockton, Richmond, Oakland, Emeryville, Hayward, Vallejo. Show me where ANY of California's firearms restrictions have helped these communities.

True story ;

My father is a retired Sacramento County deputy sheriff. He has a female friend who just retired from Stockton PD, she was a SACTO deputy beforehand. She was telling him of neighborhoods in Stockton, Stockton PD would not enter. This is not a joke or exaggeration.

A neighborhood the police wouldn't enter on patrol. She worked patrol, her whole career.

How are those background checks working out for you Cali ?

They aren't.

And finally, the people... I am still trying to de-program and drive the speed limit. I commuted through the east SF bay area 2 times a day, for YEARS. I had a 14 mile commute that took 1 hour, 10 minutes on a normal day. I was always scared of the big one hitting and being cutoff from my wife and daughter. I honestly believe the SF bay area has the potential to make katrina look like a non event. People would go APE....

 

[Botte Hork]

"Compromising" on gun rights sounds an awful lot like "negotiating" with my 3 year old who wants a cookie and throws a tantrum and won't do anything we tell him to. Until he gets the cookie, at least, that's what he makes us believe. Give him the cookie and the goal posts just moved, tantrum and disobedience continue like nothing happened. Because he wants another cookie.

I've learned that a slightly raised voice with a stern look silence the tantrum and dissolve disobedience faster than appeasing with a cookie. Of course if he's a good kid he can have one at times, but that's besides the point here.

As DaveW showed, there's 0 interest in actual compromise, there's only interest in "progress".

 

[Dave Workman]

You make good points Dave.

I think your example of lack of compromise on the part of the gov is a small one. Our whole system runs on deals, I don't see why 'responsible gun owners' would be excluded from making such deals. Of course, we only have the NRA to speak for us, and they have backtracked on compromises they have already offered like universal gun checks. Maybe they are doing the right thing?

Well, it's not true that we only have NRA speaking for us.

There are other organizations that are speaking for gun owners.

The Citizens Committee
The GOA
NAGR



Gun owners are only invited to the table these days if they are front groups for Democrats and Neville Chamberlain sportsmen types. If you are known as a hard nose negotiator, forget the invitation to negotiate.

 

[bugeye]

You hold on to the idea that you are the only one with a valid opinion and the rest of us are the great unwashed. Neville Chamberlin had ideas similar to yours, and you're saying the same thing. "If we just give them what they want, even if it's wrong, everything will be alright".

I've stated my opinion and defended it to the best of my abilities. I've admitted I could be wrong so I've openly dug more holes under my opinion than any of you have of yours. Unless we want to sell guns to criminals we really aren't giving up anything of value in my idea. How this can be compared to delivering Czechoslovakia to Hilter requires way too many 'elastic properties for me. It just seems you folks seem to find your faults and throw them at me only to be echoed by a Chorus of compatriots. In short, your sense of reality is only about as good as my 2nd wives, and that is no compliment at all!

I'm currently reading Churchill's history of WW2 in the four volume set (this is great stuff very few historians were also at the helm of such a momentous time, and he blends history with biography and personal contacts, it's really beautiful stuff!) , he goes into detail about the betrayal of Czechoslovakia in the Munich agreement. Without knowing the history of the Munich agreement you can't really understand how absurd Chamberlain was, though Hitler had not yet established his well deserved reputation as a double dealing, opportunistic liar. Keep in mind England's primary allies were the French and the Soviets in any potential struggle (confidence inspiring, nope!), and the mood of the public and their house members was pacifist after WW1. The Soviets later made a deal with Hitler and actions of the French in the war makes one wonder how they would have acted if the Munich agreement had not been made. In short, England could rely on nothing, as the French Governments were changing left and right. England at this time was all about the empire and that empire did not include Czechoslovakia, or anything else in Europe proper. It's over 70 years later and we can look back and laugh at this bad decision made by a major political figure of the period. Churchill though enough of Chamberlain's political abilities that he tried to tap him for an important role in directing the house after Churchill became PM, but the parties refused. Chamberlain was a member of the Conservative Party, the public and the representatives of that party wanted peace, and would have removed any gov that wouldn't have given it. This is one aspect where our US system of gov has it over a Parliamentary system, in that the leadership can expect to have 4 years, vs. a system where a PM can fall in a day. I'm not defending Munich, I'm just trying to look at it through the eyes of the participants presuming they saw the situation in such a way that their action made sense.

 

[bugeye]

Well, it's not true that we only have NRA speaking for us.

There are other organizations that are speaking for gun owners.

The Citizens Committee
The GOA
NAGR



Gun owners are only invited to the table these days if they are front groups for Democrats and Neville Chamberlain sportsmen types. If you are known as a hard nose negotiator, forget the invitation to negotiate.

I suspect the NRA may have backtracked on universal checks to make some sort of future deal over it. Maybe they plan to do something like I suggested as a last ditch measure. The NRA is pretty smart, and very politically aware, and our probably getting push back from their supporters in congress. I think the invitation to negotiate has been burning on both sides for a long time, it just only comes to a head when congress considers making laws about it.

 

[bugeye]

You are missing the point about the DMV, it's not just firearms laws that are bubblegumed up in the state. The state has it's hands in every aspect of your life, and your pockets. Research CARB ( California Air Resources Board ) for those not in the know, this agency wanted to ban black cars a while back...

I'm just giving you a little insight. ALL of it started with little well meaning laws.

I understand your point about rights lost in California, I would like to point out that the 9th circuit just bubblegum slapped the state in regards to not allowing carry of firearms openly, or concealed. I would like to repeat, the 9TH CIRCUIT.



Here is what freedom in the 50 states has to say about Oregon :

" Oregon remains the second-freest Pacific state, but it earned the dubious distinction of having the greatest loss of freedom in the country over the last two years. The state saw increases to its debt level, spending, taxes, and health insurance mandates. "

That pisses me off. It should piss you off too.

No more BS laws that will have ZERO effect on crime, you are only putting yourself ( and your neighbors ) in chains by supporting this stuff.

It will have ZERO effect on crime. If you think I am wrong, I challenge you to show me where the 10 day mandatory wait, CALDOJ AND NICS background check has kept crime in check in California. Post this information in the Calguns 2nd amendment forum while you are at it, I am sure they would LOVE to know as well.

Look at Stockton, Richmond, Oakland, Emeryville, Hayward, Vallejo. Show me where ANY of California's firearms restrictions have helped these communities.

True story ;

My father is a retired Sacramento County deputy sheriff. He has a female friend who just retired from Stockton PD, she was a SACTO deputy beforehand. She was telling him of neighborhoods in Stockton, Stockton PD would not enter. This is not a joke or exaggeration.

A neighborhood the police wouldn't enter on patrol. She worked patrol, her whole career.

How are those background checks working out for you Cali ?

They aren't.

And finally, the people... I am still trying to de-program and drive the speed limit. I commuted through the east SF bay area 2 times a day, for YEARS. I had a 14 mile commute that took 1 hour, 10 minutes on a normal day. I was always scared of the big one hitting and being cutoff from my wife and daughter. I honestly believe the SF bay area has the potential to make katrina look like a non event. People would go APE....

I understand your points about little well meaning laws. I remember when they started the department of homeland security that has grown into a 100 billion a year monster, that has passed useless regulations that have cost us at least 300 billion a year in lost time and productivity. Or the NSA that was just going to spy on terrorists, yeah sure!

I can understand the loss of freedoms too, why just from your post I learned that we can't even say B______ Slapped in here!

I stated in my first post on this topic that I don't think universal registration will effect the crime rate, at least not for decades.

I feel fortunate to live in Oregon, whenever I travel north or south I feel like I'm in a police state. I can tell this from the number of state troopers on the road. IMHO cops cause car accidents as drivers do all manner of crazy things when seeing them making us all adjust, cops also reduce car accidents by providing negative feedback to motorists that want to use the roads as racetracks. I think Oregon has about the right number to balance out the + and -.

Thanks for taking the time to make your views clear. I had to drive in the SF area for a few days last year under the conditions of not knowing where I was, what to expect, all while being guided by that deranged girl that lives in my cell phone, what a 'bubblegumping mess!