Interesting video on pistol caliber selection

[Blitzkrieg]

I think this guy is pretty close considering bullet tech advancements. Do note that he starts with the 9MM power level as a baseline. That would include .38 + P IMO. Now I'm not saying other calibers can't work, just that they are less likely to do so due to lack of ability to expand as well as penetrate deeply enough. Whatever you carry, be careful and alert out there, every time I've had to draw, beating them to the punch and being serious and ready was enough, thankfully. The Wile Coyote over the Grand Canyon look is priceless

Massad Ayoob mentions in his book The Gravest Extreme (yeah, I know, outdated info but still a good read) such an encounter he once had and it seems to be a universal reaction

What do you think, and what is your scientific reasoning? "All 9MMs suck" will be dutifully laughed at

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[Stomper]

I never had trepidations carrying 9mm 115gr JHP back in the late 80's and early 90's when all I had was my personal 92F, after I got out of the Army and having carried the 1911A1 the mostest while in.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I've carried most common calibers depending on the situation. Today it's 9MM +P for a hideout, 40/45/and soon to be 10MM for primary (Have a G20 and want an EAA Witness Elite 10MM soon, mostly because of it's penetration on laminated glass and such)

 

[wichaka]

Its all down to shot placement. But in 9mm I would carry a heavier bullet.

 

[Rotty]

I liked the guys reasoning that you can't have to many bullets in a gun fight. That is a plus one for 9mm. I will admit that I was surprised by the similarities between 9mm and 45 as the rounds passed through the ballistic gel. It makes sense why the military would want to go to the 45 using ball ammo because the round would cause additional damage along with the fact they are prohibited from using hollow points. Ball ammo, the kinder gentler way to kill someone.

Hollow points on the other hand the 45 tends to shake things up more as it passed through the ballistic gel. Plus 1 for the 45. Minus 1 for the 45 for having fewer rounds to put into the desired target. BUT fewer rounds means fewer rounds to account for after the incident. Is that a plus one or a minus one for the 45 I'm not sure.

I've carried 9's, 40's and now 45's. I've always gotten the same Brown Trouser reaction when I had to point anyone of them in another persons direction. Never had to pull the trigger which is a Win in my book. With that said having 7 rounds in a 45 or 15 rounds in a 9mm never became an issue for me. I agree more is better when it comes to bullets. But for me I just like my 45. I have nothing against 9mm I carried one for a lot of years.

 

[1stklass]

i picked up an HK USP 45 earlier this year, and i gotta say i absolutely love it! I am definitely a 45 fan now. the gun is amazing and comfortable to shoot and with 12+1 capacity i dont think the extra 3 9mm bullets would get me to change back.

 

[LogicBomb]

ready to laugh?....all 9mm sucks

 

[Brutus57]

settling this controversy once and for all:
Komo 4 News
SEATTLE -- The Seattle Police Department and King County Sheriff's Office have arrested the two men suspected of attempting to rob a West Seattle convenience store at gunpoint before being scared off by the clerk's "bigger" piece.

On Saturday night, two men entered the convenience store and pointed a gun at the clerk, according to police. The clerk, thinking the would-be robbers' gun didn't look real, said, "I have a bigger one," and drew his own gun.

According to police, the men ran out of the store and drove off in a white Ford Explorer featuring a rear bumper held together by duct tape.

The next night, Sheriff's Office deputies were called to Military Road South in Tukwila after two men stole a woman's purse and cellphone and drove off in a white Ford Explorer covered in duct tape, according to police.

Deputies found the Explorer crashed in a nearby ditch with the victim's purse and phone, plus a gun, inside. They also found two suspects near the scene of the crash and arrested them.

After the suspects were interviewed by detectives from the Sheriff's Office and Seattle Police Department, they, as well as a third man, were arrested and booked into King County Jail for investigation of robbery.

According to police, the three men are believed to be behind several recent robberies in Seattle and King County.

Brutus Out. Because 4 and 5 are greater than 9.

 

[salmonriverjohn]

Look up Brass fetcher, a very good site. And a big 'not' on the all 9mm's suck. I've carried both for years and have performed many tests using real carcass targets of road kill Deer (with blessings from local LEO) and can attest to this, the 9 does penetrate deeper with ALL projectiles. Is it deadlier? well the target was already dead so I can't say, but all things being equal IE, bullet vs same bullet type, the 9 did create a deeper wound channel.

There's a member here (no names please) that during season a few years back used a .45 ACP to hunt deer. He was successful in taking a nice 3x, BUT much to his chagrin, of the 3 260 gr. Speer hollow points used all but one could have been reloaded and fired but for the rifling marks on the bullets. I personally wouldn't have used a .45 ACP as my primary, but it was his hunt.
My conclusion was that the reload was moving to slow to actuate the hollow point to its full potential.

Is the 9MM equal to the .45 ACP as a man killer? I wouldn't want to be hit by either. Do I carry my Colt commander in .45 daily? Why yes I do, I've grown very fond of it over the years and it has become almost an extension of my hand.
In about an hour from now, I'll be heading into the hills with my bow on a late Elk hunt. The caliber and back up weapon of choice? A stainless S&W .357 magnum, much more applicable to the situation, but that and everything else here is my choice, and just my opinion

 

[salmonriverjohn]

PS. Thanks for the link Blitz!

 

[taylor]

Are you Ready, .38 Special! Woman Fights Robber, Cops Have to Rescue Him! - YouTube

 

[BAMCIS]

Its all down to shot placement. But in 9mm I would carry a heavier bullet.

Must be a Marine huh?

Semper Fi!

 

[BAMCIS]

There's a member here (no names please) that during season a few years back used a .45 ACP to hunt deer. He was successful in taking a nice 3x, BUT much to his chagrin, of the 3 260 gr. Speer hollow points used all but one could have been reloaded and fired but for the rifling marks on the bullets. I personally wouldn't have used a .45 ACP as my primary, but it was his hunt.
My conclusion was that the reload was moving to slow to actuate the hollow point to its full potential.

I think you are spot on there salmon. Although I have not done scientific tests, my informal research has shown for any HP bullet to be effective it should leave the muzzle with a velocity of at least 1000 fps.

A short story which piqued my curiosity into this phenomenon: Years ago when I was in LE, one of my colleagues had the occasion to legitimately shoot a local dirtbag with 230gr hollow points from a 1911 in 45ACP. Two good hits were scored. The bad guy went down and the gunfight ended. The bullets did not expand and the dirt bag lived. Which was good or bad, depending on your point of view. In any event the threat was stopped and the gunfight ended.

In this particular case it seems the HP bullets filled with down (feathers) as the passed through the bad guy's vest before passing into and through him. Through my informal research I concluded the bullets simply didn't have enough velocity for them to expand.

This particular incident was years ago and technology, particularly bullet technology has come a long ways.

 

[Stomper]

The answer: 45ACP+P

I get about 1100fps out of my Glock-30 using CorBon 230gr JHP, if I were using a Glock-21 I suspect I'd get closer to the 1300fps they're advertised for... just sayin'.

 

[orygun]

Boy, this video was hard to sit thru. He should have scripted it some.... I had to fast forward to the videos of the ballistic gelatin.
Then I just stopped it when he stated that the full size 45 typically has 6 or seven rounds.... I can't stand to listen to people stutter and ramble on. Especially when that rambling is incorrect. I'm too hyper and it friggin drives me nuts! Then I had a feeling he was just gonna give his opinion, repeatedly and uhhh, well, uhh...

Nice videos that he showed, though. I'll look them up and spend some time with Brass Catcher. Would have been cool to include the .40 in this test, but I'll bet those videos are out there.


I'm slightly surprised that the XTP (.45) even expanded at that velocity. The XTP is one tough mother and I have trouble getting the 185gr to expand, but I don't have ballistic gelatin. It didn't surprise me so much to see the 45 fail to exit.

I'm not too surprised about what the 9mm did. Speed can make up for a lot. Just ask the Weatherbys.

I carry a 45. Have for a long time. I do have a small .380 that I occasionally carry when the "dress code" requires it, but I'd rather have a little 9mm for that use.

 

[Oklahomie]

I'm a 9mm guy but man its still difficult to find, I might have to switch to .40 come new gun season.

 

[RBid]

- the Geneva Convention did not make hollow points illegal for the United States. In fact, the Geneva Convention had nothing to do with ammunition, at all. That would be the Hague Conventions, which were never ratified by the United States.

- the guy who made the video kept attributing physical damage to the secondary wound cavity. Rifle rounds do move at velocities proven to cause physical damage via secondary cavitation, but handgun rounds do not. Handgun wounding is a direct function of the round physically passing through tissue.


Neither of the above detract from the final conclusion, of course. The guy making the video kind of did the equivalent of driving drunk and getting home safely.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Look up Brass fetcher, a very good site. And a big 'not' on the all 9mm's suck. I've carried both for years and have performed many tests using real carcass targets of road kill Deer (with blessings from local LEO) and can attest to this, the 9 does penetrate deeper with ALL projectiles. Is it deadlier? well the target was already dead so I can't say, but all things being equal IE, bullet vs same bullet type, the 9 did create a deeper wound channel.

There's a member here (no names please) that during season a few years back used a .45 ACP to hunt deer. He was successful in taking a nice 3x, BUT much to his chagrin, of the 3 260 gr. Speer hollow points used all but one could have been reloaded and fired but for the rifling marks on the bullets. I personally wouldn't have used a .45 ACP as my primary, but it was his hunt.
My conclusion was that the reload was moving to slow to actuate the hollow point to its full potential.

Is the 9MM equal to the .45 ACP as a man killer? I wouldn't want to be hit by either. Do I carry my Colt commander in .45 daily? Why yes I do, I've grown very fond of it over the years and it has become almost an extension of my hand.
In about an hour from now, I'll be heading into the hills with my bow on a late Elk hunt. The caliber and back up weapon of choice? A stainless S&W .357 magnum, much more applicable to the situation, but that and everything else here is my choice, and just my opinion

IMO those 260s are for the 454 Casull revolver or a 45 LC rifle.. 230 grain is the heaviest I would use in a 45 ACP. My handload is the Sierra Power Jacket 185 grain JHP @ + or -1125 FPS out of a 1911. I can almost guarantee they will expand. But so will the 9MM version of that bullet

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Boy, this video was hard to sit thru. He should have scripted it some.... I had to fast forward to the videos of the ballistic gelatin.
Then I just stopped it when he stated that the full size 45 typically has 6 or seven rounds.... I can't stand to listen to people stutter and ramble on. Especially when that rambling is incorrect. I'm too hyper and it friggin drives me nuts! Then I had a feeling he was just gonna give his opinion, repeatedly and uhhh, well, uhh...

Nice videos that he showed, though. I'll look them up and spend some time with Brass Catcher. Would have been cool to include the .40 in this test, but I'll bet those videos are out there.


I'm slightly surprised that the XTP (.45) even expanded at that velocity. The XTP is one tough mother and I have trouble getting the 185gr to expand, but I don't have ballistic gelatin. It didn't surprise me so much to see the 45 fail to exit.

I'm not too surprised about what the 9mm did. Speed can make up for a lot. Just ask the Weatherbys.

I carry a 45. Have for a long time. I do have a small .380 that I occasionally carry when the "dress code" requires it, but I'd rather have a little 9mm for that use.

His chair creaking was annoying as well. I've carefully studied Brass Fletcher tests since they put them online. The Hornady XTP is definitely not on my list for a 45 ACP defensive load, for the exact reason you stated

 

[BoonDocks36]

Are you Ready, .38 Special! Woman Fights Robber, Cops Have to Rescue Him! - YouTube

Thank you, i snorted Coffee out my Nose! However, I am writing on my iPad Mini, and it has a Zagg Screen Protector, impervious to Coffee Snorts!!!!

Nobody argue with Mama, she slap you up 'longside yo Face, and if dat do' work, circumsize you manhood with a 38!!!! No sir, Don' argue with MAMA !!!!

philip