Interesting video on pistol caliber selection

[coop44]

.38 special is much maligned, but I would prefer one over a 9mm. more mass, more bullet selection.

 

[RBid]

.38 special is much maligned, but I would prefer one over a 9mm. more mass, more bullet selection.

We'll have to agree to disagree with regard to preference, though I acknowledge that .38spl is a fine defensive round. The extra mass doesn't help it penetrate or expand, which means it's a footnote and not an advantage. There's also the matter of the launchers designed for each of these rounds. I'll take a service style 9mm over a 6-8 shot revolver, all day long. Of course, I would MUCH rather carry a S&W J-Frame over any single stack pocket auto.

 

[Rotty]

I've carried most common calibers depending on the situation. Today it's 9MM +P for a hideout, 40/45/and soon to be 10MM for primary (Have a G20 and want an EAA Witness Elite 10MM soon, mostly because of it's penetration on laminated glass and such)

Now you have me curious. What would be the need for having a caliber that would have that kind of penetration? I never owned or fired a 10mm.

One of the main reasons I like the 45 for carry is the slower velocity. The bullet enters flesh, breaks bone, tears up flesh and has a pretty good chance of staying in the target. If I remember correctly the full force of impact is expelled on the intended target. Is the velocity enough to cause the hollow point to completely mushroom for maximum battle damage? I think in most cases "Yes it is". There are so many variables that would affect the end result that I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to analyze the cause and affect on bullet expansion.

Higher velocity bullets are more likely to pass through the target. The full force of impact is lost as it passes through.

Granted I do not want to be shot with either one. Both High/Low velocity rounds are desirable, it boils down to what you prefer and what you want to achieve. If I ever have to shoot someone I prefer knowing that there is a pretty good chance that the bullet will stay inside the target.

And maybe a 10mm round doesn't need to rely on velocity to pass through Laminated glass, maybe just pure bulk/weight of the bullet packs enough punch to get the job done. I don't know, I never looked into it.

 

[Rotty]

Are you Ready, .38 Special! Woman Fights Robber, Cops Have to Rescue Him! - YouTube

I think most guys would flop around like a fish if they got shot in the nuts with a pellet gun let alone anything bigger than that.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I think you are spot on there salmon. Although I have not done scientific tests, my informal research has shown for any HP bullet to be effective it should leave the muzzle with a velocity of at least 1000 fps.

A short story which piqued my curiosity into this phenomenon: Years ago when I was in LE, one of my colleagues had the occasion to legitimately shoot a local dirtbag with 230gr hollow points from a 1911 in 45ACP. Two good hits were scored. The bad guy went down and the gunfight ended. The bullets did not expand and the dirt bag lived. Which was good or bad, depending on your point of view. In any event the threat was stopped and the gunfight ended.

In this particular case it seems the HP bullets filled with down (feathers) as the passed through the bad guy's vest before passing into and through him. Through my informal research I concluded the bullets simply didn't have enough velocity for them to expand.

This particular incident was years ago and technology, particularly bullet technology has come a long ways.

The old Federal Hydroshocks were famous for getting plugged and failing to expand

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Now you have me curious. What would be the need for having a caliber that would have that kind of penetration? I never owned or fired a 10mm.

Same reason the FBI tested for it.. if you ever face an attacker in another vehicle on the road or in a parking lot, etc (I have, a pair of illegal alien serial killers on a back HWY) you will want as much hard surface penetration as possible.. steel, plastic, laminated glass

Many modern designs such as the Speer Gold Dot or Hornady XTP can not only do that but also expand in an assailant, if the velocity is sufficient. And BTW 45s do often exit a body

 

[Rotty]

Same reason the FBI tested for it.. if you ever face an attacker in another vehicle on the road or in a parking lot, etc (I have, a pair of illegal alien serial killers on a back HWY) you will want as much hard surface penetration as possible.. steel, plastic, laminated glass

Question answered. I can see your point. If I was ever in a situation like that I would look for features like that.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I also have one of these being built right now for attache case carry when traveling. Legally a pistol and can be CCWd

 

[Blitzkrieg]

40 and the Russian Nagant revolver rounds were always at stock at Cabelas over the last year, as well as 7.62 x 39

 

[Oklahomie]

Yeah cabelas has a pretty decent supply of 9mm FM but virtually no jhp only that odd liberty defense stuff I think its like 50grs or something?

 

[Rotty]

I also have one of these being built right now for attache case carry when traveling. Legally a pistol and can be CCWd

Ah heck go for IWB carry then the girls will say "Is that your magazine or are you happy to see me"? :gun03:

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Heh, heh.. here's a test of 10 MM and 44 mag on sheet steel.. barely enough to punch thru a car door and penetrate a person.. most lesser rounds don't have much of a chance. now the AK caliber pistol, well that's a go

 

[salmonriverjohn]

"With a handgun, no wounding mechanism can be relied on to incapacitate 100% of the time within the short span of most gunfights. Selecting a good self-defense load is only a small part of surviving a gunfight. You have to hit an attacker to hurt him, and you need a good plan for surviving until your hits take effect. Get good training, practice regularly, learn to use cover, and hope that you will never have a lethal force encounter armed only with a handgun". If someone believes that a round from either a .45ACP or the 9MM will pick your target up off their feet and send them flying, they have watched far too many Rambo movies. If that were true your hand gun would go flying from your grip and over your shoulder. at the moment of powder ignition, and that doesn't happen, right?
Fortunately, the handgun weighs more than the projectile. Its all about speed, PPSI, depth of penetration and>>> hydro static shock,<<< way important here, that's what your looking for in caliber and bullet choice. Again, just my opinion.

 

[wichaka]

Must be a Marine huh?

Semper Fi!

Not a Marine, but have been to enough shot infested autopsies over the years to get some solid facts that I've been unable to disprove;

1 - Pistol bullets are unreliable;

2 - One can use the same caliber/bullet weight etc. and shoot 10 different people in the same spot at the same angle and get 10 slightly different performance outcome with each;

3 - Over penetration is over rated.


I wouldn't consider any info. when it comes to one shot stop data. The old minimum standard response was two rounds, assess the situation and unload more if needed. Bad, very bad advice.

Given the above three points, the minimum standard response should be at least three rounds, and up to five rounds...then assess the situation.

Bullet tech. has made leaps and bounds since the old Black Talon stuff. If you're still using it, dump it and get something up to date. Before I hear the cry that the Winchester Ranger SXT is the same Black Talon bullet, think again. The SXT has been updated many times and the performance is very much higher than the original Talon bullet. They may look alike, except for color...they aint.




Yep, the "Talons" are still there, easy to see...but its a complete redesign.

As for Hydra-Shok, they were worthless from the start.

I would recommend the following in any caliber;

Federal HST

Remington Golden Saber

Speer Gold Dot

Winchester SXT

Federal Tactical...if you can find them.


...just wish they made all the above in Super 38!

 

[BAMCIS]

Wichaka that is the most informative post I've seen here in a long time. Hard to dispute FACTS.

When I first started I was trained the old "double-tap" method. That probably dates me and my training a bit but O-WELL. I couldn't agree more with pretty much your whole post especially given how training has changed after reviewing and the study of various gunfights over the years.

Regarding over penetration. In any case if the target is connected most of the bullet's energy will be expended in it before it leaves the target. So I essentialy agree.

 

[wichaka]

Thanks for your kind remarks.

I too started training back in the day when "Double Taps" were the norm. Having been thru a street confrontation back early in my career, in the 80's, I then questioned the two shot minimum standard response. But as things go, the newbie is pitched aside. I wasn't being obnoxious, was just questioning the why and where it came from, yet none could really give an informative answer.

Look at competition shooting, two shots are the standard...yet it can be life altering...and in some cases, life ending.

If you can't justify the training, why are we teaching it? Because its always been that way and we don't want to upset the balance of things. UGH!

So I've made a life of investigating training, but based on actual events...not someones spur of the moment revelation that X 'should' work.

Thru sitting in on AA debriefs, watching exclusive video be it dash-cam or surveillance, and interviewing various people over the years, I've made another three point list but based on the above gathered info.;

1 - 80% of training can be done without firing a round;

2 - There's no prize for the person who re-holsters their gun first after a confrontation, so don't act like it;

3 - Always reload before holstering. It has amazed me to no end how many people will holster an empty, or partially empty gun after a confrontation;

4 - See number one above, then proceed down the list again.

 

[oli700]

I have a CZ75 SP-01 in 9mm I would take to war as my most trusted and accurate pistol because in most things placement is king.

But I spend a lot of time in bear/cougar country and I just don’t think the 124gr HST I prefer in 9 drive quite deep enough for a good fast stop on bigger meaner critters

So as it stands I EDC a Glock 29….180 gr XTP’s over 10.7gr of Blue Dot @ 1214fps ....crono'd
might not get quite the full burn benefit of that much Blue Dot in the short 29 barrel but its the load the gun likes and they have serious poop
I need to shoot it a lot to feel competent with it though, never had a pistol I had to work so hard at getting good with. Ton of dry fire, had a bad case of low left for a while lol

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Two shots then stop is like two punches or kicks and then stop. If your safety or another innocent person's is on the line you go as far as it takes

 

[orygun]

My opinion is shoot til the threat stops. Fortunately I've not been in a situation (as others have) where I needed to do this, but it's what is in my head.

 

[wichaka]

My opinion is shoot til the threat stops. Fortunately I've not been in a situation (as others have) where I needed to do this, but it's what is in my head.

Yep, that's what needs to be engrained.

Look at it from the same standpoint as defending yourself with your bare hands. Take it to the point where the other can no longer inflict any harm to you or others. Take it past that, it becomes an assault.

Shoot until the subject is no longer a threat...go past that and who knows what you may get charged with.