Insert prefered acronym drone use

[Pnwbrrt]

I'm Looking to get into drones. I imagine being capable of remote reconnaissance in a (insert preferred acronym) situation, would be a major force multiplier and asset. I'm looking for something suitable for operation in a semi austere environment. I've done far more research on counter measures and the vulnerability to certain methods of attack than i have the laws thus far (I'll cross that bridge when I get there).

as I understand it, the primary threat is GPS scrambling and spoofing and the less probable threat of directed energy weapons. Additionally I have a surface level understanding of the RF frequency scrambling that a controller would be subject to. What Additional threats or considerations am I missing beyond the obvious like trying to operate with RID?
Like how a drone operating GPS-denied is capable of communication with the operator and how that communication is vulnerable to interception?

And is there anything that exists that can operate in the capacity outlined for between $5k-$10k? I've found a couple like the one linked and another from (I think Autel?), but I'd like to run some thought experiments on threats, considerations, constraints and counter measures.

1Up Aerial Drone Services, Inc.

1Up Aerial Drone Services, Inc. offers aerial drone services, drone operator training and expert consulting, and a wide array of drone products.

1updrones.com

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[bionic knees]

I think drones would make great targets in a [ insert preferred acronym ]

 

[Pnwbrrt]

I think drones would make great targets in a [ insert preferred acronym ]

Seems like pretty narrow minded thinking. Obviously their are risks to putting something in the sky, however the use of such wouldn't be used liberally. Your A zone would make a greater target so I'd think achieving some SA with the use of aerial surveillance would be preferable to walking into something blind.

 

[Yarome]

GPS isn't required for many drones. It's merely for automated function, positioning/stabilization etc, but many drones don't require it. They have other onboard sensors. Gyro's, mags, alt, and many with both visual and laser positioning systems/sensors.

Controllers... most use wifi bands (both DFS and non-DFS). Depending on the drone and software package, many use active/dynamic scanning, but usually only in a limited channel range. Some maybe only 4 or 5, some 9 to 11 channels. Various software packages though can allow manual access to 32, which is really nice in areas with a lot of wifi "noise". IE., being able to select channels far outside of those typically in use by commercial wifi devices.

As far as being a risk of leading someone to you... that all boils down to tactics. IE., You launch from a location away from you, land in other location also distant from you and utilize natural barriers. Like standing at a high point, launching from behind a hill and flying in a round-about to a forward observation location, etc. Observing at a distance from high altitude, using the wind to your advantage both for speed and sound mitigation in the target area, etc.

It can be a risk though. IE., If someone can see what type of drone it is, it's easy to know the average operating range, flight time and speed. That gives them a good idea of how far away the operator is and when to be paying closer attention to your flight path when they know your flight time is about expired.

Of course, you can adjust those factors by modding it with an additional external battery (increasing flight time) and use directional antennas and boosters to extend your operating range.

So I guess to be the most useful, you want a drone that is going to be as feature rich as possible. ATTI mode (manual flight control), visual and laser positioning, on board flight sensors, DFS capable, high resolution camera with zoom, etc.

Speed isn't "as" critical, but available power and weight ratios are. Especially in manual flight mode you need to have the power to maintain control within wind currents. A lot of the smaller drones on the market are only suitable to fly under the best of conditions and get tosses around like a rag doll if caught in a decent wind current. Even with auto GPS stabilization, many will be constantly fighting just to maintain steady flight and suck your battery down like mad.

They certainly can be quite handy. I spend quite a lot of time boondocking and with a trailer in tow it's nice to be able to scout the roads ahead, check for locked gates or for extended stays... locate water sources for potable water processing.

One tip... if you decide a drone might be for you... budget in an RF tracker. They can really save you a lot of grief.

Ultralight Recovery Systems for Drones Archives | Marco Polo | Tracking and Recovery Solutions

The Marco Polo Ultralight RC recovery systems are configured specifically for tracking and recovering lost RC models of all types and come with super light weight and compact transceiver tags.

eurekaproducts.com

 

[gmerkt]

I constantly hear about drones being used in various combat situations, such as Ukraine and Gaza. But I've never seen nor heard a single drone around where I live. Lots of 100 foot tall trees. Or maybe they were about and I didn't notice? Don't they make some sort of sound in flight? And would people be able to hear such sound in advance to know that they are nearby? Meaning, wouldn't operating sound give them away?

 

[Yarome]

I constantly hear about drones being used in various combat situations, such as Ukraine and Gaza. But I've never seen nor heard a single drone around where I live. Lots of 100 foot tall trees. Or maybe they were about and I didn't notice? Don't they make some sort of sound in flight? And would people be able to hear such sound in advance to know that they are nearby? Meaning, wouldn't operating sound give them away?

They do make noise, but they can often go unnoticed. IE., "neighborhood noise" like a distant lawnmower, road traffic, wind noise through the trees, etc can drown them out if they are flying high enough. Drone sound too is fairly directional. Meaning that you're only likely to hear it when it's nearly overhead. Also, if there is a good breeze, you might hear one, but it won't actually be anywhere near that particular area.

You also have to consider that you "may" be being captured by a drone camera, but at altitude, the actual drone may be quite a distance away and there would be no hope of actually hearing it.

Even if you hear one, spotting one at altitude is pretty difficult. Especially at night if the operator has the navigational lights and strobe (if equipped) turned off.

In a situation like the war in Ukraine, with drones flying at low altitude and making a kamikaze run at troops... they certainly hear them incoming. Spotting them in time and reacting to a small object travelling at 30-50mph though is a whole different matter.

Observational drones. I'm quite sure they aren't following the US's FAA rules of a 400' max altitude restriction. They could be miles away at high altitude and there is no hope they would ever be heard... and extremely difficult to spot even with magnification and you knew where to look.

 

[Yarome]

To add: It's just a theory, but I've often wondered if people are so used to hearing plane or helicopter noise overhead if they don't subconsciously "tune out" drone noise.

It's just an observation, but it seems people take more notice of mine if my drone is loitering. The stationary and persistent sound is enough "out of the ordinary" that it seems to draw more attention than when I'm just doing a fly over... or even when traversing back and forth over the same area it's more rare that anyone ever looks up.

When the kids were younger the elementary school is only about 3/4 mile away and the middle school was just over 2 miles away. I would on occasion do an overfly to watch them involved in after school sports practice, but they never noticed, even when asked. I was surprised as I'm quite sure they should have been able to hear it if they were paying attention.

 

[Pnwbrrt]

Of course, you can adjust those factors by modding it with an additional external battery (increasing flight time) and use directional antennas and boosters to extend your operating range.

So I guess to be the most useful, you want a drone that is going to be as feature rich as possible. ATTI mode (manual flight control), visual and laser positioning, on board flight sensors, DFS capable, high resolution camera with zoom, etc.


They certainly can be quite handy. I spend quite a lot of time boondocking and with a trailer in tow it's nice to be able to scout the roads ahead, check for locked gates or for extended stays... locate water sources for potable water processing.

One tip... if you decide a drone might be for you... budget in an RF tracker. They can really save you a lot of grief.

Ultralight Recovery Systems for Drones Archives | Marco Polo | Tracking and Recovery Solutions

The Marco Polo Ultralight RC recovery systems are configured specifically for tracking and recovering lost RC models of all types and come with super light weight and compact transceiver tags.

eurekaproducts.com

Thank you for your input! Any suggestions on feature rich drones? I'm leaning towards Autel EVO 2 v3 (the one with Thermal) but that's subject to change. I'm steering far clear of DJI as I don't like the geofencing and the total lack of any privacy in operation, plus as far as I can tell it sounds like their ATTI is kind of trash. Again, I'm really green in the drone world, still just doing lots or research. It sounds like the Autel evo v3 does have the option to manually put it into ATTI which is important to me for multiple reasons.

Thanks for the link for the RF tracker. I'll definitely invest in that, probably wouldn't want to fly without it, when scouting in the wilderness.

I can definitely imagine how handy they would be. I also do quite a bit of boondocking and hiking in the back country. There's been many many times, I've thought "man, I wish I had a drone right now" to scout ahead.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Thank you for your input! Any suggestions on feature rich drones? I'm leaning towards Autel EVO 2 v3 (the one with Thermal) but that's subject to change. I'm steering far clear of DJI as I don't like the geofencing and the total lack of any privacy in operation, plus as far as I can tell it sounds like their ATTI is kind of trash. Again, I'm really green in the drone world, still just doing lots or research. It sounds like the Autel evo v3 does have the option to manually put it into ATTI which is important to me for multiple reasons.

Thanks for the link for the RF tracker. I'll definitely invest in that, probably wouldn't want to fly without it, when scouting in the wilderness.

I can definitely imagine how handy they would be. I also do quite a bit of boondocking and hiking in the back country. There's been many many times, I've thought "man, I wish I had a drone right now" to scout ahead.

You have a lot of technical wants regarding hi-jacking /thermal etc etc with a price range of $5-8K?. when you sound like you've never used any sort of drone whatsoever and envision using it "hiking in the back country to scout ahead". A $100 drone will get that done just fine I believe.

 

[Pnwbrrt]

You have a lot of technical wants regarding hi-jacking /thermal etc etc with a price range of $5-8K?. when you sound like you've never used any sort of drone whatsoever and envision using it "hiking in the back country to scout ahead". A $100 drone will get that done just fine I believe.

I'm sure a $300.00 drone would provide a fine platform to learn the basics but I believe in "buy once, cry once" and want something to grow with and a cheap throw away drone doesn't have a capable ATTI flight system and many dont even have the option. Without being able to manually put it in ATTI mode, there is no way to learn how to operate it in GPS denied zones until youre there. My vision isn't using it to scout ahead in the back country but it's something I'd be able to deploy it for regularly. I've used cheap drones for short flights before but haven't dove into the more technical side of drones, their capabilities, limitations and use cases. The Autel drones I'm looking at go for $3,000 and I'd hate to spend $3,000 just to learn I should have spend $7,000 for a greater feature set and then be out $10,000 when I could have spent $10,000 to begin with and been done. I will get a $300 throw away drone in combination with a more capable system but I still will be going that route and have some learning to do.

 

[Pnwbrrt]

You have a lot of technical wants regarding hi-jacking /thermal etc etc with a price range of $5-8K?. when you sound like you've never used any sort of drone whatsoever and envision using it "hiking in the back country to scout ahead". A $100 drone will get that done just fine I believe.

I view having aerial surveillance capability, the same way I view having nods, and advanced comms capabilities.

Better to be an asset than a liability and being more capable was never a negative. In the unlikely event that they were ever needed for serious work, you'll be happy to have it and in the more likely event you don't need the capability, there is still plenty of fun that can be had employing the systems for recreation.

 

[Yarome]

Thank you for your input! Any suggestions on feature rich drones? I'm leaning towards Autel EVO 2 v3 (the one with Thermal) but that's subject to change. I'm steering far clear of DJI as I don't like the geofencing and the total lack of any privacy in operation, plus as far as I can tell it sounds like their ATTI is kind of trash. Again, I'm really green in the drone world, still just doing lots or research. It sounds like the Autel evo v3 does have the option to manually put it into ATTI which is important to me for multiple reasons.

Thanks for the link for the RF tracker. I'll definitely invest in that, probably wouldn't want to fly without it, when scouting in the wilderness.

I can definitely imagine how handy they would be. I also do quite a bit of boondocking and hiking in the back country. There's been many many times, I've thought "man, I wish I had a drone right now" to scout ahead.

If that's your thing too... they really are a fantastic tool. Mine have kept me out of more than a few jams, and when in unfamiliar territory and just bopping around from temporary site to site, getting a birdseye view of the topography can really help dial in some incredible stopover points.

If geofencing is the biggest concern, you should be aware that there have been some recent changes in 2024. Due to misuse, Autel now implements no-fly zone locking... and on the flip side... DJI is rolling back (fine tuning) their geo-locking.

Although, it has always been possible to bypass geo-locking with DJI's, the main complaint with them has been ongoing alignment issue. IE., Being well outside an airports "no fly" zone where low level flight is still allowed, but in some areas the software isn't aligned properly and hyper extends the no-fly zone.

In a SHTF situation, no one is going to observe no-fly zones, so geo-locking can be a real hinderance (if you are not aware of 3rd party workarounds), but in practical use, operating in a no-fly zone is still an FAA violation that has gotten some folks into real trouble.

"If you abuse it, you lose it" seems to apply and Autel has caved to ongoing pressure to institute geo-locking.

Autel Drone is About To Update The Drone No-fly Zone

My Autel drone won't take off? You may be in a no-fly zone for drones! For a long time, Autel drones have not been restricted by geofences and can take off directly without applying for unlocking! But due to the current misuse of drones and the stricter regulation of commercial drones, we need...

www.autelpilot.com

ATTI. IMHO, a lot of that boils down to the operator, but DJI's are more sensitive to controller input. Some people don't like that, but then again, others really like the responsiveness. Controller ergonomics play into that as well.

Some things to consider. Third-party support, apps, enhanced performance parts (Ie., prop options to increase lift, speed, reduce noise, or improve hover stability), simple things like case options, battery costs, charger options, etc etc is much more expansive in the DJI world. IE. Litchi is a 3rd party flight software suite for most DJI's that implements (or bypasses) various features across multiple platforms. Many of the innovations implemented in the OEM DJI flight software was first introduced by Litchi. Offerings and compatibility with 3rd party apps is also quite extensive. IE., if you're into mapping, there are say... a half dozen different mapping apps that are compatible with DJI's, but Autel you are mainly limited to the OEM software.

The channel expansion I mentioned earlier is another example.

Firmware updates. Many are quite unhappy with Autel's update frequency. IE., they used to have a real issue with drifting and the onboard compass was very susceptible to interference. It took months and months for firmware updates and they continue to have very infrequent updates to address issues.

On the other hand, DJI is vastly more responsive with regular updates. However, that's both good and bad. Great if there is a real issue, but a PITA having to perform updates so frequently for minor issues that may have little to no impact for the majority of users.

Autel does have some great selling points though. Extended flight time is really nice! A little more power than it's closest competitor in class... the Mavic 3. The difference between stability in force 8 winds vs. Mavic's force 6.

The OEM controller's stock controller screen is larger and has much better image quality. That said.. DJI has more controller type options available, and "most" users prefer a secondary display over a controllers. For secondary displays, the DJI is able to accommodate larger display devices and has more 3rd party display support options available. IE., My eyes aren't what they used to be and I typically use an Ipad Air. I use a 3rd party support with a DJI controller, but there aren't any options to accommodate that size of a display for the Autel's.

Also to consider is signal stability. While Autel has gotten better, many still complain about intermittent signal drops. Actual "out of the box" range between the two is really pretty comparable, however, the DJI's do seem to handle wifi static a little better. IE., flying in or near a suburban or city settings. The range ratings are in ideal conditions, but practical range is typically a mere fraction of that.

Simple considerations. The Autel's bright orange body makes it highly visible. Obviously, that can be both good and bad. It can be repainted and skins can be applied, but a skin doesn't cover everything. If you really want an incognito drone, painting is really the only option.


The bottom line: If the Autel meets your needs "out of the box", it's a very nice drone and 3rd party availability options really don't matter. Extended flight time without external battery mods is a massive plus. Personally, I'm more bias toward Sony products than DJI's, but Autel is still a budding product line and it's hard, for me, to ignore the wider versatility, refinements and wide support base of the DJI's.

Form factor considerations: Personally, I'm not a fan of either the EVO 2.. OR.. the Mavic. On the pro side, they are small and convenient to pack around. The wide footprint and low center of gravity also makes them much easier/stable to land. On the con side, the body shape makes them less stable on all axis's in the air and I prefer a high skid undercarriage. They aren't as stable when landing (although there are "training wheel" extended skid attachments available), but I most often use mine in uneven terrain and plowing my camera into the brush/ground is no fun. Gimbals are not very robust and highly sensitive to any impacts or interference. Hand catching is an option, but not at all practical when in ATTI mode and it does take some practice. Personally, walking up to a drone with 10k/rpm rotors spinning at head level doesn't excite me and only hand catch when absolutely necessary.

If high definition still photography is your thing, one additional thing to be aware of is that neither the Evo 2 or Mavic have mechanical shutters.

As always, YMMV.

 

[Yarome]

A $100 drone will get that done just fine I believe.

It might, if you're main requirement is to fly straight up to low level altitude, glance around at your surroundings and come back down again it may be suitable. So long as winds are under 5mph and external interference is minimal.

Something like that is probably more suitable just for fun... low level tooling around, say, a football field size area without any obstructions, but for any practical use they are pretty worthless. Good enough to check your gutters for leaves, though.

Loosing one doesn't sting as much, but then again, in that class of drone you are vastly more likely to loose it.

 

[Burt Gummer]

Never drink at a barbeque and show off how high she can fly then accidently hit the kill switch. That was when I realized drones were not for me or any other knucklehead. Made for an exciting freefall to the neighbor's roof though on July 4th. Selling the used parts almost recapped the loss. Luckily the crash spot wasn't a person or car.

 

[Yarome]

Never drink at a barbeque and show off how high she can fly then accidently hit the kill switch. That was when I realized drones were not for me or any other knucklehead. Made for an exciting freefall to the neighbor's roof though on July 4th. Selling the used parts almost recapped the loss. Luckily the crash spot wasn't a person or car.

You just need a higher quality drinkin drone. If the drone looses connection with the controller for any reason... it simply flies itself back and lands exactly where it took off from.

Another drinking drone tip. Never go shore fishing and use your drone to drag and drop your bait out without thoroughly testing the drop arm. If you really must... don't then try and drip the bait in the water thinking it might help dislodge it from the drop arm. Evidently.... repeatedly dipping bait under the surface of the ocean tends to attract fish... and even a moderately sized fish has ZERO issue pulling a drone out of the sky. Who knew!!???

 

[Burt Gummer]

Yeah, mine was years ago and it did have the return out of range feature, but it was a KILL switch that made everything turn ugly fast. That thing came down like a meteor and spread parts for about 25' every direction.

The one worse purchase for someone like me would be a train horn in my truck.

 

[bradsteen]

If you don't already have some experience with drones, "buy once, cry once" is likely less important than "try before you buy". What you are describing is like someone who has never picked up a guitar before dropping $8-10k on gear when they don't know if they have either the aptitude or passion for it. Buying a mid-grade drone to build familiarity and experience is IMO money well spent. If you end up finding you aren't that into drones after all, then you've minimized the cost of your experiment, whereas if you find you're really passionate about it you've learned important skills and developed understanding of platform limitations.

 

[Joe13]

I picked up a Bwine drone off Amazon on a lightning deal as an impulse buy (which I never do, but it was that good of a deal and I figured I could return it).

It is loud up to about 100 feet. It can go up to 400 legally and has a 1.9 mile (line of sight) range.

At 400 feet up you have to know what you are looking for directly above you and forget going 1.9 miles - if you go 800 yards you can't see the thing.

It will return to where it launched if disconnected from your phone via wi-fi.

Cheap - I paid $220 for it. It's heavy and needs to be registered but it will hold steady in 20 mph winds. Is 4k and you can see a long dang way at 400 feet.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

What the correct acronym for "shoot the bubbleguming things down"?

I have no issue at all with people flying them in appropriate places. But they fly over public parks or poeples houses and literally ruin the day for everyone underneath. I wish it were legal to shoot them down in those cases.

 

[Yarome]

If you don't already have some experience with drones, "buy once, cry once" is likely less important than "try before you buy". What you are describing is like someone who has never picked up a guitar before dropping $8-10k on gear when they don't know if they have either the aptitude or passion for it. Buying a mid-grade drone to build familiarity and experience is IMO money well spent. If you end up finding you aren't that into drones after all, then you've minimized the cost of your experiment, whereas if you find you're really passionate about it you've learned important skills and developed understanding of platform limitations.

This has merit.

On one hand, I wouldn't go "too" cheap or you're first experience may not end well, but going full hog out of the gate may not be wise either.

The leading cause of drone loss is an operator with no manual flight experience. Developing that skill though does heighten the risk of crashes or even "hard landing" damage.

One route may be to decide which you most prefer and then buying the previous version model on the cheap, or from the used market as a trainer. That would give you the same controller type and flight characteristics to learn on without investing a big chunk of change.