Inexpensive Ammo - Good, Bad, Justsayno?

[Blitzkrieg]

I don't like to shoot anything with a steel case in any of my guns except the AK or SKS. As stated earlier in this thread, the AK and others were designed with this type of ammo in mind. I have learned a lot about the different types of steel cased ammo on this thread (NWFA members are extremely intelligent and i learn something new every time i visit the site) however i will stick to brass in the rest of my firearms. My $0.02. Lefty.

I do shoot some steel case ammo in my PTR 91.. they are very rugged weapons and no problems have been reported with such use.. but most of the rest of my guns get only brass cases

 

[pdx lefty]

I do shoot some steel case ammo in my PTR 91.. they are very rugged weapons and no problems have been reported with such use.. but most of the rest of my guns get only brass cases

Funny thing is, i target shoot with steel cased ammo in my AK, but keep it loaded with brass at home. After cleaning it of coarse. My thinking is, if i need to grab it, it wont be to hunt and tight groups will not matter. Lefty.

 

[Arkarayne]

Funny thing is, i target shoot with steel cased ammo in my AK, but keep it loaded with brass at home. After cleaning it of coarse. My thinking is, if i need to grab it, it wont be to hunt and tight groups will not matter. Lefty.

Agreed, russian/soviet/Bloc weapons prefer russian/soviet/bloc ammo. (Wolf, Barnaul) But I keep brass rounds with em at home. Wolf sells 9mm, but i'll probably never use it in my Made in USA gun, i'll buy it for the "Rainy Day" if that's all I can get, but yeah, my SKS and Mosins love steel/lacquer, but i'll keep buying brass too for reloading.
I mean, how many people use only Winchester ammo in Winchester guns?

 

[SSG]

Most will agree that the laquer coated ammo(so it's water resistant)...tends to melt, and plug up the gas ports...I can't confirm this...

Factory ammo, is by anyones standards...someone elses idea of what a .223/5.56 rd should be, so is commericaly reloaded...we assume that factory ammo has better quality control vs a guy in his garage with a Dillon...I would agree becase big machines are set to, and can hold better tolerances then a guy with a lever and one piston...but it all depends on quality control, and what they crimped, how much powder, what type of bullet, ect, they CHOSE to use....

All that said...if you can't afford to shoot..this excercise is pointless...you shoot what you can afford, and if you can't afford factory or even cheap reloaded commerical ammo, you will be reloading......let the games begin...

So my advice...just go shooting...buy the best you can afford..., hope that it works in your gun, if you start shooting alot, learn to reload and make a rd that will be reliable and accurate in your weapon.

 

[The B]

Most will agree that the laquer coated ammo(so it's water resistant)...tends to melt, and plug up the gas ports...I can't confirm this...

and "most" seem to be retarded when it comes to accurate gun facts. besides- nobody uses lacquer anymore.. it's all polymer now. and the gas port has nothing to do with it- this is the first time i've ever even heard anyone say that. i'd stake a lot of money that that's never happened, if we could polygraph anyone who's claimed it has.


not trying to be a bubblegumhead, but i cant believe how people will continue to pass on bad information. how many people has this myth gone through who have never confirmed it, nor had any confirmation of it, before passing it on?

even back when they used lacquer, and still now that they use polymer, the stuff does not melt in the chamber. all you have to do is pull the last round back out of the chamber and see that it's still lacquer/polymer coated, and that it's not melting, and BAM- no more misinformation. that simple.

what it DOES do is "chip" off, leaving tiny little red flakes all over the action, but still generally not in the chamber- it blows off the back of the round when the cap pops, gets all over the bolt and barrel extension. but I, personally, and having fired thousands of rounds of both lacquer and polymer coated steel cased ammunition, have still never had issues with stuck steel cases.

again.... stuck cases with steel are caused by tight chambers. these same weapons that choke on wolf will also choke on brass, if you get them dirty enough.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Russia still makes some Lacquer coated ammo

If the OP is looking to shoot cheap, he should consider a .22 LR conversion kit.. $200 and then you shoot for a tiny fraction of 5.56 prices

 

[SSG]

and "most" seem to be retarded when it comes to accurate gun facts. besides- nobody uses lacquer anymore.. it's all polymer now. and the gas port has nothing to do with it- this is the first time i've ever even heard anyone say that. i'd stake a lot of money that that's never happened, if we could polygraph anyone who's claimed it has.


not trying to be a bubblegumhead, but i cant believe how people will continue to pass on bad information. how many people has this myth gone through who have never confirmed it, nor had any confirmation of it, before passing it on?

even back when they used lacquer, and still now that they use polymer, the stuff does not melt in the chamber. all you have to do is pull the last round back out of the chamber and see that it's still lacquer/polymer coated, and that it's not melting, and BAM- no more misinformation. that simple.



again.... stuck cases with steel are caused by tight chambers. these same weapons that choke on wolf will also choke on brass, if you get them dirty enough.

So I guess your a chemist now..when someone hands you some Russian ammo, you walk out the truck, thrown the rd into a spectral analyzer for a full chemical breakdown...does it matter what the coating is...????

The fact that any 'coating' was originally 'liquid', now dry, now is coating the rd, generally means that it can be heated up again, and can coat, stick, plug up stuff when it cools back down into a solid......so hot barrels and actions tend to get other things 'hot' as well...bringing them back into liquid or water into gaseous form...high school chemistry...

I know plenty of AR guys that are sick of trying to clean their guns after using the laquer/polymer/whatever coated rds.

By the way...stuck cases, yes can be caused by tight chambers but can also be caused by overpressured rnds expanding into the case, dirt...hard metal steel is less forgiving then softer brass, so the steel doesn't 'give' if it runs into a snag...Lubrication, moly, ect can all help to make rds feed better as well as chomelined vs standard steel, ect...also stuck cases can be caused by running 5.56 rds through a .223 chamber...

If your another one of those guys that got one good AR, only ran one type of ammo, and now concludes that no ARs have any problems,and are an AR expert...well, your in good company...seems everyone with an AR that shoots 20 rds a year is an AR expert these days....

 

[The B]

So I guess your a chemist now..when someone hands you some Russian ammo, you walk out the truck, thrown the rd into a spectral analyzer for a full chemical breakdown...does it matter what the coating is...????

The fact that any 'coating' was originally 'liquid', now dry, now is coating the rd, generally means that it can be heated up again, and can coat, stick, plug up stuff when it cools back down into a solid......so hot barrels and actions tend to get other things 'hot' as well...bringing them back into liquid or water into gaseous form...high school chemistry...

I know plenty of AR guys that are sick of trying to clean their guns after using the laquer/polymer/whatever coated rds.

By the way...stuck cases, yes can be caused by tight chambers but can also be caused by overpressured rnds expanding into the case, dirt...hard metal steel is less forgiving then softer brass, so the steel doesn't 'give' if it runs into a snag...Lubrication, moly, ect can all help to make rds feed better as well as chomelined vs standard steel, ect...also stuck cases can be caused by running 5.56 rds through a .223 chamber...

If your another one of those guys that got one good AR, only ran one type of ammo, and now concludes that no ARs have any problems,and are an AR expert...well, your in good company...seems everyone with an AR that shoots 20 rds a year is an AR expert these days....

no dice, hones- i'm an infantry vet and an avid tactical shooter. i'm fully immersed in the local tactical shooting scene, fire 10k .223/5.56 in a slow year, and know and associate with shooters who fire even more. i lead an M4 training group, am taking over Practical Rifle at my range, and have built and fired about two dozen personal ARs in the last decade. i also earn a small side income building and smithing the platform. i'm an established member in the national internet gun community, and benefit from the collective knowledge shared there as well. i don't claim to be any master of anything, but i definitely have a bubbleguming clue.

buy any of this or dont- the points i've made are no less valid. show me some evidence that coated ammunition melts in a hot chamber. it doesn't even need to be verifiable information- just show me one internet poster (the least reliable of all information sources) who has a slightly compelling argument that coated steel is causing malfunctions in his properly-sized chamber.

as to the "chemistry" of coated ammunition- the "liquid" starts as an organic-compound based semi-liquid. once applied, the VOCs that make it liquid are allowed to evaporate out, or are cooked out. either way, it will never turn back into a semi-liquid again, unless you re-introduce VOCs like butyl acetate and xylene or even more volatile compounds used for more recent polymers. even gun solvents, if you lubricated your weapon with solvent, aren't close to enough to dissolve it. back when they used lacquer, it wasn't insect-lac, it was PHRL- "polymerized heat-resistant lacquer"- and if you could get it hot enough to remove it, you'd just burn it. the newer fully-synthetic polymer coatings are better, but more importantly, they're cheaper. which is why they switched.

the "AR guys" you know that are sick of cleaning their guns after shooting coated ammo are sick of cleaning out the tacky carbon deposits left in the chamber by the poor quality and extremely dirty powder these manfers use, and polymer flakes left in the action (which don't do anything). and they probably don't use the greatest cleaning methods- all it takes is a little more solvent and a standard chamber brush. as i said, and unless you want to believe i'm just full of bubblegum, i've fired thousands of rounds, not 20, of steel cased ammo. this is all my first-hand experience, not mythology overheard at gunshows or by "AR guys" that i know. but i can tell you that my fellow "AR guys" that have shot as much or more steel than myself have the same experiences. thats why they shoot it, and it's why i have no problem shooting it if i have to.

and as to the gas port getting "clogged..." you obviously have no idea how high pressure and how hot that gas burns through the gas port- it's on par with a plasma torch. no plastic- not even PHRLs- are going to have any effect on the gas port.

 

[SSG]

no dice, hones- i'm an infantry vet and an avid tactical shooter. i'm fully immersed in the local tactical shooting scene, fire 10k .223/5.56 in a slow year, and know and associate with shooters who fire even more. i lead an M4 training group, am taking over Practical Rifle at my range, and have built and fired about two dozen personal ARs in the last decade. i also earn a small side income building and smithing the platform. i'm an established member in the national internet gun community, and benefit from the collective knowledge shared there as well. i don't claim to be any master of anything, but i definitely have a bubbleguming clue.

buy any of this or dont- the points i've made are no less valid. show me some evidence that coated ammunition melts in a hot chamber. it doesn't even need to be verifiable information- just show me one internet poster (the least reliable of all information sources) who has a slightly compelling argument that coated steel is causing malfunctions in his properly-sized chamber.

as to the "chemistry" of coated ammunition- the "liquid" starts as an organic-compound based semi-liquid. once applied, the VOCs that make it liquid are allowed to evaporate out, or are cooked out. either way, it will never turn back into a semi-liquid again, unless you re-introduce VOCs like butyl acetate and xylene or even more volatile compounds used for more recent polymers. even gun solvents, if you lubricated your weapon with solvent, aren't close to enough to dissolve it. back when they used lacquer, it wasn't insect-lac, it was PHRL- "polymerized heat-resistant lacquer"- and if you could get it hot enough to remove it, you'd just burn it. the newer fully-synthetic polymer coatings are better, but more importantly, they're cheaper. which is why they switched.

the "AR guys" you know that are sick of cleaning their guns after shooting coated ammo are sick of cleaning out the tacky carbon deposits left in the chamber by the poor quality and extremely dirty powder these manfers use, and polymer flakes left in the action (which don't do anything). and they probably don't use the greatest cleaning methods- all it takes is a little more solvent and a standard chamber brush. as i said, and unless you want to believe i'm just full of bubblegum, i've fired thousands of rounds, not 20, of steel cased ammo. this is all my first-hand experience, not mythology overheard at gunshows or by "AR guys" that i know. but i can tell you that my fellow "AR guys" that have shot as much or more steel than myself have the same experiences. thats why they shoot it, and it's why i have no problem shooting it if i have to.

and as to the gas port getting "clogged..." you obviously have no idea how high pressure and how hot that gas burns through the gas port- it's on par with a plasma torch. no plastic- not even PHRLs- are going to have any effect on the gas port.

No your right...nothing goes from liquid to solid, back to liquid, nor does liquid go to gas when heated...in your world the laws of physics don't apply, nor does varnish in the firearms create problems, or make them harder to clean..

 

[The B]

No your right...nothing goes from liquid to solid, back to liquid, nor does liquid go to gas when heated...in your world the laws of physics don't apply, nor does varnish in the firearms create problems, or make them harder to clean..

this is what you chose to reply with? this is one of the weakest, half-assed attempts at a rebuttal i've ever received.

No your right...nothing goes from liquid to solid, back to liquid, nor does liquid go to gas when heated

where exactly in my post did i say anything even close to this?

in your world the laws of physics don't apply,

what "laws of physics" are you referring to? if you can't even tell me what laws i'm somehow failing to grasp, don't bring them up.

nor does varnish in the firearms create problems, or make them harder to clean..

if polymer WAS ACTUALLY sticking to the inside of the chamber, you'd have a great point about me failing to see how that could be a pain to clean... but since it's my contention that the polymer is DOES NOT END UP INSIDE THE CHAMBER, you're being sarcastic about an argument i'm not making.

mind clearing some of this up, please?

also, you might have a stronger case if you could provide some actual examples- like i said, they don't even need to be first-hand experience. i've been floating around the internet gun community, trying to correct a lot of these gun-show myths, for a long time- and i can't think of any first-hand claims ANYONE has ever made. just like at the gun-show, the only talk you ever hear/read is heresay. "i have friends..." "i know guys..." "it's common knowledge..." "happens all the time..." etc, etc, etc. nobody will ever claim it for themselves.

if you can show me ONE post... ONE article... ONE study... ONE single piece evidence that shows any degree of credibility, i won't say another word.

 

[pdx lefty]

Listen! If you guys don't relax I'm going to start telling jokes I swear I'll do it! And trust me, not many people i know think there funny I'm not trying to be disrespectful or step out of bounds guys, just trying to drop the temp a degree or two With all do respect "pdx righty" Lefty.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I guess all those guys over at ar15.com are just blowing smoke out their bums about the polymer gumming up their actions

 

[The B]

I guess all those guys over at ar15.com are just blowing smoke out their bums

that's what they do best at arfcom.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

that's what they do best at arfcom.

I'll definitely give your posts more weight than the many folks who say otherwise

 

[wichaka]

Have trained with bkb0000, and feel he knows his stuff...I have no doubts there.

Personally I wouldn't touch steel cased stuff until it WAS the last ammo on earth...just sayin'.

But lets keep it civil...pleeeeeeeeeeeeeez