I was wrong about the Sig P320

[lucusloc]

This takes a lot of integrity, not just to quietly admit that you were wrong but to post it for everyone to see. You were already on my list of Marines to send a treat to, but I am going to bump you up the list. PM me is you want a giant, tasty green crayon shipped right to your door.

I think there will be a learning curve with carry on the P320 and any new guns like it, just like there was with Glock and other striker fired pistols in the 80s and 90s. And I never liked the "light gap" with holsters regardless of platform used. There are simply too many incidents on record, yes even with Glock and other "safe" duty pistols, to think that carrying in a holster that does not fully protect the trigger is safe. But I do agree that lighter triggers exacerbate the problem, that is just simple physics. On the other other hand, Sig triggers are not all that light from the factory, they are not even the lowest pull on duty guns to my knowledge. I think the only thing that can be said for them is that they are the lowest weight for a duty gun that has seen this widespread of adoption. Couple that with the reporting on the issue (made worse by Sig's own response to the situation) and you have what we see on the topic.

 

[sobo]

You were already on my list of Marines to send a treat to, but I am going to bump you up the list. PM me is you want a giant, tasty green crayon shipped right to your door.

 

[1775usmc]

This takes a lot of integrity, not just to quietly admit that you were wrong but to post it for everyone to see. You were already on my list of Marines to send a treat to, but I am going to bump you up the list. PM me is you want a giant, tasty green crayon shipped right to your door.

I think there will be a learning curve with carry on the P320 and any new guns like it, just like there was with Glock and other striker fired pistols in the 80s and 90s. And I never liked the "light gap" with holsters regardless of platform used. There are simply too many incidents on record, yes even with Glock and other "safe" duty pistols, to think that carrying in a holster that does not fully protect the trigger is safe. But I do agree that lighter triggers exacerbate the problem, that is just simple physics. On the other other hand, Sig triggers are not all that light from the factory, they are not even the lowest pull on duty guns to my knowledge. I think the only thing that can be said for them is that they are the lowest weight for a duty gun that has seen this widespread of adoption. Couple that with the reporting on the issue (made worse by Sig's own response to the situation) and you have what we see on the topic.

Green crayons are my jam!

 

[1775usmc]

This takes a lot of integrity, not just to quietly admit that you were wrong but to post it for everyone to see. You were already on my list of Marines to send a treat to, but I am going to bump you up the list. PM me is you want a giant, tasty green crayon shipped right to your door.

I think there will be a learning curve with carry on the P320 and any new guns like it, just like there was with Glock and other striker fired pistols in the 80s and 90s. And I never liked the "light gap" with holsters regardless of platform used. There are simply too many incidents on record, yes even with Glock and other "safe" duty pistols, to think that carrying in a holster that does not fully protect the trigger is safe. But I do agree that lighter triggers exacerbate the problem, that is just simple physics. On the other other hand, Sig triggers are not all that light from the factory, they are not even the lowest pull on duty guns to my knowledge. I think the only thing that can be said for them is that they are the lowest weight for a duty gun that has seen this widespread of adoption. Couple that with the reporting on the issue (made worse by Sig's own response to the situation) and you have what we see on the topic.

I think it would do SIG a lot of favors to recreate what they believe is happening. Not pointing fingers and calling names. Show people. Get the same gun, holster, and foreign object and show how easy it can be recreated. When people were claiming handcuffs and seat belts I thought no way. But after having them in my hands and seeing the ease of it going in, pressing the trigger and easily pulled back out my mind was immediately changed. Way too easy.

I also think it would be beneficial to add some form of external safety. Cause that's what the lawyers are going after. Not the fact they are "just going off" but because they were manufactured with zero external safeties. Even a tabbed trigger would void this argument. They put themselves in a corner and have continued to dig to the point they can't change anything now. Cause if they do they'll get hammered legally speaking. It will be interesting to watch what happens as all of this moves forward.

 

[User 1234]

I am skeptical of Sig, but open minded. I do agree with the point above that Sig should engage with the public instead of giving the middle finger. Wasn't there a song lyric about a guy who was seen cheating on video: "but she caught me on camera…it wasn't me…". Or Eddie Murphy's stand up: "Woman, are you going to believe what you saw, or what I'm telling you!"

Much of the criticism is based on a theory that tolerance stacking between multiple parts can create a rare combination that is defective and fires without the trigger being pulled. If that is impossible, Sig should explain why. Do they have strict measurements of every single part as they arrive at the factory? Would every possible combination of parts of every tolerance range still not result in an uncommanded discharge?

Explaining those instead of saying "trust us" and calling every critic an anti-gun activist would be more persuasive to me.

 

[lucusloc]

I think it would do SIG a lot of favors to recreate what they believe is happening. Not pointing fingers and calling names. Show people. Get the same gun, holster, and foreign object and show how easy it can be recreated. When people were claiming handcuffs and seat belts I thought no way. But after having them in my hands and seeing the ease of it going in, pressing the trigger and easily pulled back out my mind was immediately changed. Way too easy.

I agree that would have been a great way for Sig to handle it. There PR has been a case study in what not to do, especially when it appears that they were actually right about the issues at hand. I too think they guns were going off because the triggers were being actuated, and I agreed with Sig's claims to the same. But holy hell read the room and learn to say things better, not just blame your customers for having the wrong take on the issue. It does not matter if you are right, you have to be right with a whole hell of a lot more grace than that for people to trust you. Sig may have been factually right when it came to the details of the controversy, but that does not meant they were not very very wrong with how they handled it.

I also think it would be beneficial to add some form of external safety. Cause that's what the lawyers are going after. Not the fact they are "just going off" but because they were manufactured with zero external safeties. Even a tabbed trigger would void this argument. They put themselves in a corner and have continued to dig to the point they can't change anything now. Cause if they do they'll get hammered legally speaking. It will be interesting to watch what happens as all of this moves forward.

This is why I said those cases against Sig were dangerous to the entire industry, not just Sig. Sig lost them not because anyone proved the gun operated incorrectly, but because the lawyers convinced a judge and jury that the lack of certain safety devices itself was a culpable liability. If those stand (they are still being appealed) this will not be a liability just for Sig, but for the entire industry. Every gun that lacks any specific safety feature a lawyer decides to claim is "essential" will face lawsuits over it, and the "Sig precedent" will be used against them to force compliance.

Remember, the P320 is not "saftyless," it has half a dozen internal safeties, more so than even Glocks. If those do not count because lawyers say "reasons" then no one else is safe either. I am not sure we want lawyers deciding which safeties count and which ones don't. That does not sound like a great situation to be in for us.

 

[lucusloc]

Green crayons are my jam!

I know. I can't send you one without your addy. I know that is hard for you to understand because your SOs hand feed you everything but that is the way it works on the outside

 

[1775usmc]

I agree that would have been a great way for Sig to handle it. There PR has been a case study in what not to do, especially when it appears that they were actually right about the issues at hand. I too think they guns were going off because the triggers were being actuated, and I agreed with Sig's claims to the same. But holy hell read the room and learn to say things better, not just blame your customers for having the wrong take on the issue. It does not matter if you are right, you have to be right with a whole hell of a lot more grace than that for people to trust you. Sig may have been factually right when it came to the details of the controversy, but that does not meant they were not very very wrong with how they handled it.


This is why I said those cases against Sig were dangerous to the entire industry, not just Sig. Sig lost them not because anyone proved the gun operated incorrectly, but because the lawyers convinced a judge and jury that the lack of certain safety devices itself was a culpable liability. If those stand (they are still being appealed) this will not be a liability just for Sig, but for the entire industry. Every gun that lacks any specific safety feature a lawyer decides to claim is "essential" will face lawsuits over it, and the "Sig precedent" will be used against them to force compliance.

Remember, the P320 is not "saftyless," it has half a dozen internal safeties, more so than even Glocks. If those do not count because lawyers say "reasons" then no one else is safe either. I am not sure we want lawyers deciding which safeties count and which ones don't. That does not sound like a great situation to be in for us.

That's why I said external. Personally I think they should have some form of external safety. Especially on striker fired guns. It should be a standard. That's my opinion.

Sig is just as rash in pointing fingers. Their claim in the Montville PD incident is still posted on their website and it is easily proven to be false. The pistol was completely seated and they have yet to recorrect or take that claim down.

SIG SAUER Statement on Montville, CT Police Department Incident

www.sigsauer.com

The gun is completely holstered. More than likely it was the single handcuff key hanging off of the sergeants belt on his left side. In a single photo you can see the gun is holstered, strap over and seated. You can also see the key that more than likely made it into the holster as the officer stood up. But that wasn't SIGs claim. They said the agency jumped to conclusions and switched to Glock. They are just as guilty for jumping to conclusions and pointing fingers.

I do not like SIG nor do I trust them. I want to see them held accountable. Even if it's simply for how they handled this entire thing. And their lack of honesty with the drop issues, and their inability to listen and address their customers. I'm not defending SIG at all. Just simply stating I was wrong about my beliefs up until this point. If evidence comes out proving something else I'll gladly change my mind.

 

[Old Dog]

I think we can all agree that SIG USA has displayed some management issues over the past few years.

I also think SIG has gotten way too ahead of itself with its constant introductions of more and more models every year with far too many versions of classic models. While I love the Legions and the AXG models, the product line as a whole is overwhelmingly bewildering.

But the response of SIG's leadership to the problems with the P-320 has been a classic example of how not to defend your products.

However, I remain a diehard fan of SIG's pistols (not its long guns), especially the 238, 938, 220, 230/232, 225 (and 225-A1), 226, 227, 228 and 229. Love my 365s, got one in every configuration and all the females in the family have one and love 'em.

 

[1775usmc]

I won't be carrying a P320. I don't have confidence in the platform. My view and opinion on it has been tarnished. I will never carry something I can't trust. And I hate SIG as a company and their leadership. I just wanted to come clean and say I don't think these guns are just "going off" like I thought before. If new evidence is provided I am willing to change my mind. But for now I think as a tool the gun is "safe" but not the right tool for duty. And until something changes these lawsuits will continue.

It's also not a good look that SIG knew about the drop issue for almost a year before notifying their customers (the Bruce Gray patent confirms this). And they only did so because of videos online showing that it was happening. Up until that point they denied it and still do. Then the VUP instead of a recall to fix a problem they claim didn't exist. Followed by the "It ends today" post. A great example of what not to do. The P320 has been plagued from its inception.

 

[Stomper]

Green crayons are my jam!

Yep, and we know where that jam is.....


Don't fall in!

 

[1775usmc]

Tabbed trigger arrived today.

 

[trukinbear]

Yeah. I still haven't got a holster for it. Probably never will. It's the house gun. I have it on my nightstand with the chamber empty and a 21 round mag in it. I like the way it feels in the hand and it's an easy, accurate shooter. But, my RXM feels pretty much the same in the hand, so that is the 9mm that I would carry first, before all of my other 9's.

View attachment 2162718

How do you like that RXM overall? And compared with G19?

 

[1911Fanatic]

How do you like that RXM overall? And compared with G19?

I like it better. The grip feels like the Sig grip frame that I have. I have two. The M18 and the carry on a Compact. I like the trigger better than Gen 4 and 5 Glocks. I've had a number over the years, including Gen 1 and 2 and my Current 19X is Gen 4 or 5. The mags are Gen 4.

 

[1911Fanatic]

Green crayons are my jam!

When my late sister was a child, she had a phobia about having to eat a blue Crayon. She ate all the other ones though.

 

[DirectDrive]

Tabbed trigger arrived today.

View attachment 2163052

There is an easy way and a hard way to deal with the P320 trigger spring.
If you find yourself reaching for a needle nose, stop, you're doing it wrong.
Sig Guy shows the easy method.
Hopefully Youtube didn't take the video down.

 

[1775usmc]

When my late sister was a child, she had a phobia about having to eat a blue Crayon. She ate all the other ones though.

She would have made a great Marine.

 

[1775usmc]

There is an easy way and a hard way to deal with the P320 trigger spring.
If you find yourself reaching for a needle nose, stop, you're doing it wrong.
Sig Guy shows the easy method.
Hopefully Youtube didn't take the video down.

I'll definitely watch before diving into the FCU. Way too many little moving parts. Lol

 

[DirectDrive]

I'll definitely watch before diving into the FCU. Way too many little moving parts. Lol

Found it.
Sig Guy is a great teacher and has many awesome videos on his YT channel.
It's fair to say that many P320 trigger springs are bent and ruined when using the wrong method.
I trashed (bent) my first one not knowing the proper method.

View: https://youtu.be/aavojO33WM8?feature=shared

 

[1775usmc]

Found it.
Sig Guy is a great teacher and has many awesome videos on his YT channel.
It's fair to say that many P320 trigger springs are bent and ruined when using the wrong method.
I trashed (bent) my first one not knowing the proper method.

View: https://youtu.be/aavojO33WM8?feature=shared

I appreciate it. I'll watch before diving into anything.