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One thing I've noticed is how far behind SD bullet technology is compared to hunting bullets. I attribute this to the fact there is a lot more practical knowledge of bullet performance on animals than people. Are animals so different that technology isn't applicable? Hunters have madenthe switch from big and slow to small and fast calibers. I guess therebis a big difference between velocities and sectional density between rifle and pistol ammo. My SD carbine is loaded with Barnes VorTx ammo with Barnes TTSX bullets because I've seen the bullet work very well on critters. Its crazy thay we have 6 common SD cartridges for handguns (380 ACP, 38 SPC, 357 Magnum, 9x19, 40 S&W and 45 ACP) while we have 6 or more 30 caliber hunting cartridges that are fairly common (30-30, 308, 30-06, 300 WSM, 300 Win Mag, 300 WBY, 300 Ultra).

What thinks you all?
 
A hunting round you want the bullet to expand but hold mass and are not worried about over penetration out in the forest.

A SD round though is much more complicated because your trying to strike a balance between not over penetrating but retaining enough mass to be effective.

For most of the pistol cartridges lives they have only needed FMJs. Now we have all sorts of weird stuff that's supposed to be the big next thing and some are while others are just rebranded for the newness.


In short, the 'ideal' situation is a polar opposite when talking taking large game vs stopping a person from killing you.
 
One thing I've noticed is how far behind SD bullet technology is compared to hunting bullets.
I'll have to politely disagree with this, SD hollowpoint technology has made huge advancements and continues to grow. Nowadays we have polymer tipped hollowpoints that improve penetration and expansion. Then there is the black talon "cop killers", pre-fragmented ammo, all copper hollowpoints and lately some kind of phillips screwdriver looking thing... These are all modern advancements.

Hunting ammo, primarily rifle ammo has always had a massive velocity advantage affording penetration needed to stop large game, so the only important thing there is good expansion. In my opinion, they dialed that in years ago with the basic soft point lead core. I've been shooting Sierra Game Kings in my elk rifle for years and not much has improved on that.

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I'll have to politely disagree with this, SD hollowpoint technology has made huge advancements and continues to grow. Nowadays we have polymer tipped hollowpoints that improve penetration and expansion. Then there is the black talon "cop killers", pre-fragmented ammo, all copper hollowpoints and lately some kind of phillips screwdriver looking thing... These are all modern advancements.

Hunting ammo, primarily rifle ammo has always had a massive velocity advantage affording penetration needed to stop large game, so the only important thing there is good expansion. In my opinion, they dialed that in years ago with the basic soft point lead core. I've been shooting Sierra Game Kings in my elk rifle for years and not much has improved on that.

2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fimage%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2F1%2F6%2F165gr_sierra_gameking.jpg

If that were the case though, the Nosler Partition, Nosler Accubond, 3 generations of Barnes X-Bullets and Tipped x-bullets, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and Tipped Bear Claws, Hornady Interlock/Interbond/A-Max/GMX, and a host of others wouldn't exist. Manufacturers make bullets that promote, control and or/delay expansion on various size game. There are probably over 100 cartridges and bullet combinations designed to kill deer alone. They are able to take deer cartridges like the 25-06 and use bullet design to make it viable for elk.
 
If that were the case though, the Nosler Partition, Nosler Accubond, 3 generations of Barnes X-Bullets and Tipped x-bullets, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and Tipped Bear Claws, Hornady Interlock/Interbond/A-Max/GMX, and a host of others wouldn't exist. Manufacturers make bullets that promote, control and or/delay expansion on various size game. There are probably over 100 cartridges and bullet combinations designed to kill deer alone. They are able to take deer cartridges like the 25-06 and use bullet design to make it viable for elk.
true, I agree. It looks like both hunting ammo and SD ammo is continually improving.

Ive taken 3 bull elk with a 25-06... I bought a new scope this year and am getting better groups with the Hornandy Superformance 117g plastic tipped bullet, so likely I will be leaving the old Sierra Game King behind.
 
If that were the case though, the Nosler Partition, Nosler Accubond, 3 generations of Barnes X-Bullets and Tipped x-bullets, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and Tipped Bear Claws, Hornady Interlock/Interbond/A-Max/GMX, and a host of others wouldn't exist. Manufacturers make bullets that promote, control and or/delay expansion on various size game. There are probably over 100 cartridges and bullet combinations designed to kill deer alone. They are able to take deer cartridges like the 25-06 and use bullet design to make it viable for elk.

Comparing the amount of available cartridges / caliber's from rifles to pistols is an apples to oranges comparison IMO.

Pistols are only designed around a handful of rounds because they became the most popular and it doesn't make sense to design a pistol in a caliber no one can find ammo for.

Also due to size alone pistol caliber's are limited because, with the exception of revolvers, they all load thru the grip.


If we only look at bullet design I think those rifle rounds would be cut down to just a handful of options, taking caliber's out of the mix.

Or maybe this was a 2 part question?
 
My SD carbine is loaded with Barnes VorTx ammo with Barnes TTSX bullets because I've seen the bullet work very well on critters.

Well, if one is in a rifle self defense fight against someone, then you are going to want ammo that can go through barriers and still penetrate your opponent. Barnes Vortex ammo with a TTSX bullet would certainly do a very good job at doing that, so it would indeed be a most effective choice for SD.

However, Barnes Vortex ammo is very expensive premium ammo. It would thus cost quite a bundle to have any sort of significant supply of that ammo on hand. If you are shooting a 5.56mm, it would be dramatically less expensive to use some military M855 ammo that has a steel penetrator. You would still get awesome penetration, but at a fraction of the cost.

A SD carbine is generally going to be a semiauto in 5.56x45mm NATO, 7.62x39mm, or 7.62x51mm NATO. While one could use a bolt or lever action for SD, one sure would be at a major tactical disadvantage going up against an opponent with a semiauto rifle.

Although with the way things are going on the gun control front, maybe the days of ownership of bad "black" semi auto rifles here in the Pacific Northwest are numbered.

.
 
There are nearly a hundred new SD rounds available from the last five years of development. Research into shooting people doesn't require people to be shot, it uses ballistic gelatin, and the FBI requirements. Saying that hunting bullets are ahead, or behind, SD ammo is a moot point. Who cares? This isn't a conversation worth having. I'd rather see a thread about the weather. There are a hundred awesome hunting rounds to choose from, and as many SD rounds to boot.
 
Comparing the amount of available cartridges / caliber's from rifles to pistols is an apples to oranges comparison IMO.

Pistols are only designed around a handful of rounds because they became the most popular and it doesn't make sense to design a pistol in a caliber no one can find ammo for.

Also due to size alone pistol caliber's are limited because, with the exception of revolvers, they all load thru the grip.


If we only look at bullet design I think those rifle rounds would be cut down to just a handful of options, taking caliber's out of the mix.

Or maybe this was a 2 part question?
:s0090:
 
I see more advances in the SD development lately then ever was in the hunting world! What took 70+ years for hunting has taken less then 10 in the SD world. A lot has to do with demand and marketing. With the advent of the Spitzer soft point and later with bonded core, we haven't really seen much until the advent of the "ballistic tip" ammo. Now we have led free ammo that almost matches and in some cases has a higher B.C. then every thing that has come before! Conversely, the SD side has made huge gains in the last few years, new tech has allowed bullet performance that was not possible just a few years ago. Just having a "Hollow Point" is no longer enough, having controlled expansion and deep penitration while dumping all the energy inside, the holey grail of performance is close to being viable in all the popular caliber choices! Sort of a renaissance in ammo development these days!:cool:
 
As far as pistols, whats to improve? 230 grains of solid lead will drop you like a bug:p
I think a lot of the pistol SD technology was trying to make the 9mm perform like the 45acp, a true manstopper... If it wasn't for hollow-point bullet technology the 9mm wouldn't be as popular.

(enter thread drift in 3.2.1.....)
 
I see more advances in the SD development lately then ever was in the hunting world! What took 70+ years for hunting has taken less then 10 in the SD world. A lot has to do with demand and marketing. With the advent of the Spitzer soft point and later with bonded core, we haven't really seen much until the advent of the "ballistic tip" ammo. Now we have led free ammo that almost matches and in some cases has a higher B.C. then every thing that has come before! Conversely, the SD side has made huge gains in the last few years, new tech has allowed bullet performance that was not possible just a few years ago. Just having a "Hollow Point" is no longer enough, having controlled expansion and deep penitration while dumping all the energy inside, the holey grail of performance is close to being viable in all the popular caliber choices! Sort of a renaissance in ammo development these days!:cool:

I think this is better written what I was trying to say in my first post. When it comes to rifle velocities its not as hard to develop a bullet that penetrates and is effective. Handgun velocities just don't compare, so more focus has been on bullet performance/development. But I will admit that we do have more bullet options now in rifle calibers, perhaps they took some lessons from their pistol bullet engineering?
 
I sure do like where the newest SD bullets really perform! I like that I can choose the amount of penetration with out having to change bullet weight very much! I still prefer bone crushing power, but I like that I can now dump all that power with in, instead of over penetrating to keep the energy up! I sure do love that Remington Golden Saber, it just works! I like that I can find a load to match barrel length in all the popular calibers, thus never giving up on the amount of power I have to do the job! And in .45, It just doesn't get much better then that!
 
Don't worry, if the leftists have their way we will only be able to go out and "shame" the deer and elk to death. No more need for bullets.
 

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