how to explore new loadings from scratch

[Dr Prepper]

Hey all, i have some accurate#9 and shootes world heavy pistol which has a pretty similar burn rate.
Accurate is supposed to be pretty good for 10mm and i think .357 as well.
So i imagine it SHOULD work for .460 rowland which is a .45 case strengthened its more powerful than 45 super and in 44mag territory.
Its case is longer than .45 for safety reasons but the bullet looks to be seated at the same length as regular .45 acp.

so I'm thinking both of these powder should work right?
Im fairly confident this can be accomplished but i figured I'd seek advice here before starting.

I have some longshot i have standard mfgr recipes for and ill start with that for the meantime.


i also have a similar question about shotshell loading. I have a shotshell manual (lyman) to read through here shortly. But i recently got a lyman slug mold (the big pellet style one) thats suppoaed to use reg. shot wads.
I was thinking about cutting the tops off regular cheap bulk bird shot and casting slugs and then roll crimping them closed.
They are just slightly over weight from the factory loads. And i was kinda thinking about downloading the factory powder charge anyway -10% and starting to work up. I may have to use a little overshot card under the slug to prevent deforming the wad (?) If it even fits with the cut hull.

Just tossing these ideas out there,
I'd love some feedback, just incase im overconfident/"ignant"

Thanks for any advice in advance.

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[P7M13]

Load Data - 460 Rowland

www.460rowland.com

 

[Dr Prepper]

Yeah. I already have all thier load data.
As stated, (In the title) how to explore new loadings from scratch. Meaning no load data... I've already looked at the 460rowland.com data hodgdons website and accurates load data.
And i kinda highly doubt any other manuals have load data on 460 Rowland but im assuming. If theres any data OTHER THAN THE ONES I JUST MENTIONED then I'd be interested in it.

Otherwise theres NO data for A#9 and id like some ideas on where to start. There are loads listed for #7 for lighter bullets iirc.
Fyi ill be using a 9" glock with 230gr flat nosed FMJ's

One question i have is if the case will hold enough required. Looking at the 45 win mag it throws a similar weight/size pill and there ARE a#9 loads listed for that. But its like 20gn and obviously the case is longer. So shorter COAL means higher pressure as well as less space.

Idk i think tomorrow i might have to weigh out 15gn's and see where about the case fill is. Maybe its dead in the water?

 

[Dr Prepper]

One thing i know for certain is the manuals NEVER seem to list ALL compatible powders for load data. And sometimes skip a specific weight and list a lighter and then a heavier bullet. (Im talking manuals not mfgr data.)

I'll try and find some 45 super loads to see if any list #9

 

[oremike]

I think you'll find the #9 is too slow of a powder and you will lose velocity over #7, Blue Dot, Longshot powders. IMHO there is basically three speeds of powders. With in the speeds the powders work similarly. All the 460 Rowland Data I can find uses the middle speed powders just like 9, 40, 38 Super and others.The #7, Blue Dot & Longshot are at the slow end of the middle speed powders. AA#9, Enforcer, 2400, Lil' Gun are the fastest of the slowest powders but are a different tier than the other powders.

 

[Dr Prepper]

I think you'll find the #9 is too slow of a powder and you will lose velocity over #7, Blue Dot, Longshot powders. IMHO there is basically three speeds of powders. With in the speeds the powders work similarly. All the 460 Rowland Data I can find uses the middle speed powders just like 9, 40, 38 Super and others.The #7, Blue Dot & Longshot are at the slow end of the middle speed powders. AA#9, Enforcer, 2400, Lil' Gun are the fastest of the slowest powders but are a different tier than the other powders.

Yeah. Thats basically exactly what im thinking. I am kinda hoping that since my setup is definitely unique with a 9" barrel the "fastest" slower powder might actually have an advantage and be able to make up some of that burn rate loss.

Idk I'll concede i could be entirely wrong. Some burn rate charts i saw have #9 and longshot/blue dot pretty darn close.
And yes i know they are subjective.
Oh well worse case scenario i have some new #9 to sell on here.
I also have 2400, blue dot, power pistol and maybe one or two others to play with.
I wish i could find some more power pistol for sale. Seems decent in 10mm really good in 9mm.

 

[Dr Prepper]

I really dont understand how a cartridge like 45 win mag can use #9/2400/(H110?) and use darn near identical bullets but in a larger case and i think have near the same velocity but another case can't. But I'm definitely no ballistician by any stretch of the imagination.

Now.. Even if it doesn't work well and isnt optimal. I think id still like to try. Im mostly worried about having a bullet stuck in the barrel due to lack of powder.

 

[oremike]

I think it has something to do with the shape of the powder chamber, ones that are kind of short and fat use the one faster tier of powder while powder chambers that are more long and cylindrical use the slower tier. But that just a WAG.

 

[Dr Prepper]

Yeah thats kinda what has me wondering about the case fill question.

 

[oremike]

I really dont understand how a cartridge like 45 win mag can use #9/2400/(H110?) and use darn near identical bullets but in a larger case and i think have near the same velocity but another case can't. But I'm definitely no ballistician by any stretch of the imagination.

Now.. Even if it doesn't work well and isnt optimal. I think id still like to try. Im mostly worried about having a bullet stuck in the barrel due to lack of powder.

Well for one thing the powder chamber on a 45acp/Rowland will hold at max about 10 grains of powder(short and fat) and the 45 Win Mag will hold closer to 30 grains of powder. (long and cylindrical)

 

[oremike]

To be clear, I'm not saying don't try it, only that there might not be the gain you want. Story time, I once did some extrapolations and came up with a 255 gr bullet load to shoot in my 1911 45 acp useing H-110 powder. The load was accurate but only about 500 fps. It also filled the pistol with un-burned powder, so what I would call a "not so efficient load".

 

[Dr Prepper]

Booo!
Thats what i was afraid of! Man i hooe i dont have to sell this powder. I went over board with it.
Thanks for the dissapointing info neverthe less. 20 is getting near rifle loads and i was skeptical.
Didn't realize this till after i bought it of course..
Easy to jump the gun in these days of scarcity.

 

[Dr Prepper]

To be clear, I'm not saying don't try it, only that there might not be the gain you want. Story time, I once did some extrapolations and came up with a 255 gr bullet load to shoot in my 1911 45 acp useing H-110 powder. The load was accurate but only about 500 fps. It also filled the pistol with un-burned powder, so what I would call a "not so efficient load".

Well i need some extra flame to fuel the massive brake for this thing..
Over gassed wouldn't be a terrible thing. (Not that it would be burned)
But i think it would be a interesting experiment not many lomg barrel glocks out there.
Would be oh so sweet if it worked. But "wont someone think of the children" i mean primers..
I dont want to waste too many primers...

 

[oremike]

Booo!
Thats what i was afraid of! Man i hooe i dont have to sell this powder. I went over board with it.
Thanks for the dissapointing info neverthe less. 20 is getting near rifle loads and i was skeptical.
Didn't realize this till after i bought it of course..
Easy to jump the gun in these days of scarcity.

Don't despair, #9 is a great powder for what it's good at. What's the worst that'll happen, You'll just have to buy a new gun to shoot it up in, and you know the correct number of guns is always just one more.

 

[oremike]

Well i need some extra flame to fuel the massive brake for this thing..
Over gassed wouldn't be a terrible thing. (Not that it would be burned)
But i think it would be a interesting experiment not many lomg barrel glocks out there.
Would be oh so sweet if it worked. But "wont someone think of the children" i mean primers..
I dont want to waste too many primers...

One last thing is I use Magnum Primers with all my #9 loads. When I was looking at the data some said to use a Magnum primer and other did not so I went with the Mag's across the board.

 

[arakboss]

AA #9 doesn't seem to ger much love for 460 Rowland.

 

[Dr Prepper]

Yup..
And oremike, i already have the .357 mag. kinda needed powder for it too. But this is taking priority. Id like to get the most ft/lbs per pill and primer.

 

[P7M13]

I feel your pain.
Wasn't aware you had been to 460, so tossed that one over the fence.
You seem experienced, but I'll flog the horse.
To me, this is "tread carefully" territory. You're upping the pressure significantly on a low pressure round to get the velocities that Rowland is touted for. Even though the barrel is designed for higher pressure, bad pressure spikes in pistols can lead to some major owies and a trip to the ER. IF my gun was an all metal frame, I would feel a wee bit better about that. Glock? Oof.
Damn, I hate to sound like "that guy."

I think in this case (no pun intended), Quickload is your friend. Know anyone who has it?

In my experience, if you don't find a powder listed for a specific cartridge, and the powder has been around a while, there's good reason.

General rule of thumb, powders burn most efficiently when they are in a 85 - 100% fill scenario. Some get really ugly below, and some when above, more so when compressed. A bullet set-back on chambering, leading to a KB in your hand is a good example of the latter.

Not having loaded for the Rowland, I can't offer any wisdom. What I can offer, if you make it down to Portland, is some Longshot or 800X for you to try. I was holding on to those because they're ideal in 10mm. #9 is too, so I can swap you some.

 

[oremike]

To address your other question, about 12ga Slugs, I've got th same Lyman shotshell book as you and it has a Slug section so that will be a good place to start.

 

[Dr Prepper]

I think in this case (no pun intended), Quickload is your friend. Know anyone who has it?

I dont.. I was wondering about QL as well. No worries about the Rowland relay. Ya dont know till you try. I should have given what sources i already looked into.
And i sincerely appreciate your worry. I hate hospitals and love my "fingies" with Every thing going on i especially dont want to go to the hosp.
Hence this thread..

I'm kinda curious since #7 is a slower powder could i start with the max load for that for 460 Rowland and dail that back like 5-7% for starters and slowly work up?
Again IF it will even fit in the case.