El Paso - Cop shoots Handcuffed man

[whiskeybill]

OK, here's my take. Not really an expert opinion, but I have worked military LE and corrections in my career. It looks as if the man was brought in off the street and the jail guards recognized that he was on some sort of drugs. At that point the decision is made to transport to the local emergency room. City and county jails do not have medical staff on board. This is when things get out of hand. Why the officer unholstered is not clear, but a drug crazed detainee can be more than a handful. Many years ago there was a book used for training LE titled "Street Survival". I recall one training section that addressed dealing with suspects on drugs and how they can react. There was a photo of a dead suspect that was shot many times by two officers. The suspect was on "Angel Dust" and trying to attack the officers. Both LE emptied three magazines into the suspect, all shots pretty much center of mass, before the guy collapsed. Remember, as armed civilians, we need to be aware of our surroundings and situations, and if needed, we can back off. LE has a duty to stay in the fight, and many times there is just no way the end will be pretty. I personally have been involved in having to subdue suspects / detainees, and the level of force necessary is different every time. It can go from 0-90 in seconds. There have been times when a simple thumb hold will do, to having ten cops strap a big crazy to a litter board. Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that there are some bad apples in LE, but by and large the LE community is dealing with far more bad apples than we suspect, and doing a pretty damn good job of it. By the way, my wife works in an emergency room, and it sure as hell isn't pretty for them when the cops have to bring in mental patients or drug users. They get attacked all the time by these bottom feeders.

As one of my instructors told me many years ago: "It's better that you are in court explaining why the suspect is dead, rather than for HIM to be in court explaining why YOU are dead".

 

[Sstrand]

Shooter gets promotion to training officer . . . shootee goes on last ride . . .End of story!!

Sheldon

 

[RicInOR]

I get that the shooting occurred because one officer hit the others hand, as the stoner had "thrown off" the officer.


I read that than stoner was to be transported to hospital -
Questions -
were they going to drag him all the way there?
Why couldn't a medic come into the jail?
Why was the pistol out; the stoner was completely out of control - does anyone comply when they are that out of their minds, pistol or not?
Could they have locked the stoner in a cage / medical cell to observe him and wait for medical assistance?

With hindsight from my desk, why didn't the officers just step back and observe the guy - rather than forcing him to comply?

I hope the Sheriff / jail reviews how it handles such cases.




A quote from a completely different case - one where they beat a guy in diabetic shock -who due to that medical condition could not comply.
The officers were, of course, cleared of any wrongdoing. There are a couple of problems here. The first, and more problematic, is the cops' instinct to beat someone who doesn't immediately follow their commands — that is, their failure to consider the possibility that someone may be disobeying for non-threatening reasons."

I have posted a number of times where cops made a medical condition bad - places where I had to ask why were the police even there. In this case, the guy was in jail and thus the responsibility of the Sheriff.
The diabetic shock guy was found by police, and if they had not found him, he could have died without medical aid. (Of course he had to recover broken bones, and risked blood clots because they did.)

My conclusion is that we need to end the War On everything. And get back to Serve and Protect. Officers on scene are trained observers, first responders - knowing when to get medical aid, or an Animal control officer is wisdom - which can come from training.

 

[Martini_Up]

murder

 

[whiskeybill]

I get that the shooting occurred because one officer hit the others hand, as the stoner had "thrown off" the officer.


I read that than stoner was to be transported to hospital -
Questions -
were they going to drag him all the way there?
Why couldn't a medic come into the jail?
Why was the pistol out; the stoner was completely out of control - does anyone comply when they are that out of their minds, pistol or not?
Could they have locked the stoner in a cage / medical cell to observe him and wait for medical assistance?

With hindsight from my desk, why didn't the officers just step back and observe the guy - rather than forcing him to comply?

I hope the Sheriff / jail reviews how it handles such cases.




A quote from a completely different case - one where they beat a guy in diabetic shock -who due to that medical condition could not comply.
The officers were, of course, cleared of any wrongdoing. There are a couple of problems here. The first, and more problematic, is the cops' instinct to beat someone who doesn't immediately follow their commands — that is, their failure to consider the possibility that someone may be disobeying for non-threatening reasons."

I have posted a number of times where cops made a medical condition bad - places where I had to ask why were the police even there. In this case, the guy was in jail and thus the responsibility of the Sheriff.
The diabetic shock guy was found by police, and if they had not found him, he could have died without medical aid. (Of course he had to recover broken bones, and risked blood clots because they did.)

My conclusion is that we need to end the War On everything. And get back to Serve and Protect. Officers on scene are trained observers, first responders - knowing when to get medical aid, or an Animal control officer is wisdom - which can come from training.

I will still agree that it's a mystery why the officer unholstered his pistol. That being said, I'll point out a few other items that need to be clarified.

1. The article stated the suspect / victim was beating his own head against the wall in his cell. To just "step back and observe" that behavior would have been criminally negligent on the part of the officers present. They had no choice but to remove him from the cell and transport him to a medical facility.
2. Depending on the policies in place at various jurisdictions, you may not be able to get medical personnel into the jail. If the city / county has a contract with a private ambulance service, they may not be required to help with drug OD in a jail facility. They may have to contact the local fire department to get a paramedic on scene. What is the policy there? Do many of you realize that many hospitals have a policy that they will not treat you unless your are INSIDE their facility? You can be outside of a hospital having a heart attack on the sidewalk, and they are not allowed to go out and help you. That is a true deal folks. That is implemented for staff safety.
3. Even the most seasoned, expert paramedic will have a difficult time distinguishing between a severe schizophrenic episode, a drug overdose, alcohol withdrawal, or diabetic shock by just watching. And no, that paramedic isn't going to just give a magic shot of some sedative, because the suspect / victim may have an adverse reaction that may be deadly. What magic training can we give police officers that will make them better prepared than a trained paramedic? Police are already trained in basic first aid to include CPR. More medical training will probably be pointless.

Now to the crux of the matter. Our country is all about freedom and choices. Surprisingly, it is also about personal responsibility that go along with our rights. Most of the people who get portrayed as victims have made some very bad choices, even though it is their "right" to do so. Many have chosen to abuse drugs of many varieties, but there are a million bad consequences to such choices. The drug abuser makes it a lot more difficult for first responders to differentiate between them and someone with a true, not by choice medical emergency such as a diabetic. The drug abuser costs the taxpayer untold millions every year in legal and medical costs. By taxpayer, I mean you and I. That is not magic government money from some mystery, bottomless money well. That is our money. The list can go on, but I think you get the point.

To those that still insist that this police officer is a murderer, he was acquitted by a grand jury. I would beg you to look up that term. A grand jury is called just like any jury, it is not some secret bunch of "Good Ol' Boys", it is called from a list of citizens. These citizens determined that there was not enough evidence of foul play or criminal negligence to warrant an indictment, and that no criminal charges should be brought to trial.

Sadly for the victim, he made a bad choice by consuming bath salts. If he had chosen wisely, none of this would be up for discussion, and the officer involved would not have this lifelong burden of killing a man.