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Contageous FRENZY --- What Training?????

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by U201491, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    32 Cops, Fired 600 Bullets into 1 Car Full of Hostages, Killing a Hostage
    Matt Agorist


    police-chase.png

    Stockton, CA — Discharging a firearm in circumstances that endanger innocent persons or hostages, is prohibited by police departments.

    So why on Earth would 32 cops chase down a car full of hostages, fire into that car killing a hostage, and even fire directly over their colleagues in the process?

    The answer to that question, according to a detailed report released Monday by the Police Foundation, is because of a “lack of planning.”

    “In reviewing dispatch tapes and in response to interviews, the review team determined there was no planned response for when the suspect vehicle stopped,” the report concluded. “This lack of planning, along with the number of officers involved, created a level of chaos that was difficult to manage and overcome.”

    Apparently officers killed the innocent woman because they hadn’t planned on how to deal with an innocent woman between them and the bad guy.

    On July 16, 2014, three suspects, armed with handguns and an AK-47, robbed a Bank of the West branch and took three women hostage before fleeing in a bank employee’s SUV.

    A lengthy and dangerous chase ensued which spanned three counties, 63 miles, and reached speeds in excess of 120 mph. During the chase, police and bank robbers exchanged fire.

    By the time the chase came to a stop, 32 officers were amped up and ready to let loose, so they did. According to the report, some officers were so primed to start firing that they engaged in “sympathetic fire,” meaning they only fired their weapons because other officers were shooting. Complete lunacy.

    The LA Times reports:

    In some cases, officers opened fire while colleagues were in front of them. The report highlighted an example during the final standoff, in which one officer lay prone on the ground and did not shoot while an officer next to him, standing, fired “round after round.”

    “‘What’s your target?’ the prone officer yelled, thinking he was missing something,” the report stated.

    “‘The car!’ responded the officer,” according to the report.

    Prior to the melee, two of the hostages were able to jump out of the vehicle. Bank manager Kelly Huber, was shot by one of the suspects and either jumped or was pushed out of the vehicle. According to the report, hostage Stephanie Koussaya, a bank teller, realized police were shooting into the vehicle, and so she jumped out.

    “When I saw the SWAT team and its vehicle, I knew it was going to go badly. I knew I had to get out,” she said, according to the Police Foundation report. “My whole thing was, ‘I wasn’t going to die that day.’ “

    But Misty Holt-Singh was not as lucky at Huber and Koussaya. She was not able to get out of the way prior to the hellfire. The cowardly bank robbers would use her as a human shield, and she would be hit at least 10 times by police bullets.

    Two of the suspects and their hostage, Holt-Singh, were killed. Jaime Romas was found hiding under the body of the slain woman. He now stands charged with all three of their murders.

    The report concluded that the fury of police bullets was “excessive” and “unnecessary.” However, in spite of this conclusion, not one single officer involved in this incident has faced so much as a slap on the wrist. They were merely sent to receive additional training. Apparently none of the 32 officers knew that you aren’t supposed to kill the hostages.



    Sure, the police were not responsible for the three women to be taken hostage on that day. However, their actions, and their bullets led to the death of one of these women, who was a beloved mother and wife.

    Could they not have let the bank robbers go to protect three innocent lives?

    In criminal law, Blackstone’s formulation (also known as Blackstone’s ratio or the Blackstone ratio) is the principle that:

    “It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer”

    Police officers, in this instance, were more concerned with catching a bad guy than they were with preserving innocence. This is a travesty and an indication of a grave underlying problem.

    In authoritarian societies, the leadership and law enforcement apparatus holds the opposite view of Blackstone’s ratio.

    Bismarck, for example, is believed to have stated that “it is better that ten innocent men suffer than one guilty man escape.” Pol Pot made similar remarks.

    Wolfgang Schäuble referenced this principle while saying that it is not applicable to the context of preventing terrorist attacks.

    Alexander Volokh cites an apparent questioning of the principle, with the tale of a Chinese professor who responds, “Better for whom?”
     
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  2. DuneHopper

    DuneHopper Douglas County. Well-Known Member

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    Yet..................in Portland if you open carry without a concealed your in trouble,
    is it just me or maybe the news media but dang sure seems like many cops have lost their freaking minds.
     
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  3. MrNatural

    MrNatural Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Everything's OK.

    All the cops went home safe at shift-end.

    Nothing to see here. Move along, citizen.
     
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  4. DuneHopper

    DuneHopper Douglas County. Well-Known Member

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    Well as long as the police are ok, alright then :)
     
  5. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    600 divided by 32 = 18.75 rds ea. Every one a full mag dump. Plus someone reloaded.
     
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  6. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Jaime Romas killed everybody
     
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  7. oknow

    oknow amboy wa. Well-Known Member

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    No charges we will be filed they followed proper police procedure.
     
  8. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Holy Fifth Element Leeloo.
     
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  9. Caveman Jim

    Caveman Jim West of Oly Springer Slayer 2016 Volunteer

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    Should have fired 1 more round (for Romas).....
     
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  10. DuneHopper

    DuneHopper Douglas County. Well-Known Member

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    image3.jpg
     
  11. Deebow

    Deebow Portland Well-Known Member

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    Let them go? Sure. If all they did was steal money and a car; no problem. There is no guarantee that the BGs would have not killed the hostages though. So letting them go is not an option when lives are at stake.

    This was a no win situation for the police. If they hadn't done anything and the BGs shot the hostages, the sheep would be in an uproar about "why didn't the cops do anything?" and when they did do something, now they get "why did the cops have to shoot?" from the sheep.

    600 bullets is excessive. 32 cops involved is excessive and more training on how best to command incidents like this is needed, because controlling the scene with 32 Alpha personalities with a high prey drive screams out for more command and control. How would you even discipline officers in something like this? It seems there is much we don't know:

    1) Was there a negotiator with SWAT? Did Rojas say he would start killing hostages?
    2) If SWAT was there, the incident must have been static, so something must have caused the officers to start firing (at least one of them)
    3) Did LE have control of the scene?
    4) If SWAT was there, they had an incident commander, where was that guy and what orders did he give?

    I am glad the officers all went home safe, because while I hate traffic wardens and ticket writers, that was a shizznit storm for sure that could have gone much worse than just one person killed.
     
  12. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    I think there is too many cops just waiting for an opportunity to fire their weapon
    Thy know they will probably get off and the unions will cover the legal bills
    Win win situation
     
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  13. Vanillagerrilla

    Vanillagerrilla Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    I think some of todays LEOs may be Sub-Alphas with High Prey Drive, but to me , it seems like this was an instance of " why is he shooting? Im not shooting...I better start shooting! "...PEW PEW PEW!
    In my opinion, most LEO are not Alphas. I say this because Alpha Males possess situational awareness, discernment, and integrity. Alpha is leader for a reason, and force alone equates to tyrant.
    Without those qualities, you have a bully or possibly a brute looking for an excuse to use excessive force.
    just my 2 pennies.
     
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  14. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Duh ,they're the guy who got picked on in high school.
    Now they have a gun and a badge...and a bad hair cut
     
  15. Vanillagerrilla

    Vanillagerrilla Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes:
    One of my friends is Patrol K9 for the city. I broke his leg in 8th grade football practice... He's a good guy in general, not just because he wears the badge.
     
  16. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    No I know that there are good cops also
    Does he have a bad hair cut though?
     
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  17. Vanillagerrilla

    Vanillagerrilla Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

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    HAHAHA!


    yeah... :(
     
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