Discussion in 'Oregon Reviews' started by Northwest Firearms, May 8, 2010.
Blackwater Tactical Discussion
This business is permanently closed
These guys are top notch. Jason is always personable and has given great survice, Honest about products and not the kind to blow smoke up your _ _ s
If he doesn't have it He'll try and get it...:thumbup:
Need to update the address on this one. Jason's in his new shop now on 12th.
12th & Cross west side of 12th street behind Salem Emblem.
Is this the shop that was behind the Subway on State St before?
Yes , same Guys different location,,,lots more inventory!!
Well, things have changed at this shop. I am impressed. Although, I'm not sure about the suburban with a laptop and blacked out to look like a police rig... anyway, he's got quite a selection.
Picked up my LWRC from Sully today and walked out of there with a partial case of ammo and some more mags. His selection and prices are fantastic. He's always worth the 500mi round trip.
He does have the largest Acc. selection in the area. I would like to see a little bit more middle of the road stuff. I dont want to shop for UTG Crap( which he does not specialize in) but I cannot afford to spend $350 on a soft Tactical case. Some middle of the road priced stuff would be really helpful. Still on of two shops in salem I donate my money to.
Bought my CMMG from these guys. Couldnt be happier! fair price great service and tons of eye candy to stare at while waiting for the backround check to go through!. I would agree that a little more middle of the road products would be great but then again its thier buisiness and the higher end stuff prob has better mark up. So whatever you guys have to do to stay open keep it up!
I really hate to give this place a bad score after all the good things I've heard and read about it, but my first and last experience coming in here was enough to turn me away from ever coming back.
I was stopping in to ask if they carried AR-15 bolt carrier groups in the M16 configuration (no material machined from the back end). I have an engineering background, and I would prefer using this part as I can see the value in a more balanced carrier when things like long term wear are considered. The man behind the counter (friends have told me he is the owner) explained they did not carry them, as it is not legal to own said carrier. I clarified that the use of an M16 bolt carrier group does not convert a weapon to full-auto and is not illegal. I realized there is a lot of argument about this topic online, so if he is unwilling to sell this item, I respect that.
The problem was, he couldn't agree to disagree. In front of other customers, he decided to lecture me about how the ATF would lock me up for owning an item like this, and that he had been in business for X amount of years and knew what he was talking about. I was very calm, and dismissive about the whole issue, as I'd rather not argue. As I mentioned above, if he didn't want to sell the item that was fine by me. When he kept going on and on, I interjected that high-end manufacturers like Daniel Defense, LMT, and others, all sell their semi-auto rifles with M16 style carriers. He came back with something to the effect of "well those rifles come with a certificate showing the rifle is legal" and told me some story about a run of Colt AR-15s that came with an M16 carrier by mistake, and how they all came with these "certificates" as well. At this point, I was done with the whole argument. I own a AR-15 from Daniel Defense, and they do not come with a "certificate". I was still okay with the store at this point; I felt like I was talking to Doug at GunCrafters... but it's his store, and he can sell what he wants. I kept looking around while he was talking to another customer and then a few minutes later he shouted "I can show you one of those certificates if you want!" and I said "no, it's okay, I believe you" and left. I felt like he was going out of his way to make me look like an idiot in front of other customers. I liked the shop, the selection, and the prices... but that last little comment was just unacceptable to me, and I will not come back.
As I mentioned before, there is a lot of argument about the use of an M16 BCG on the internet, and I would prefer that if anyone comments on my post, that it focus only on customer service topic. I do not in any way want to derail this thread with unrelated argument.
So I will keep this simple. Everybody that has been in here and has dealt with me know that I am always polite and friendly to customers and always go out of my way to try to accommodate everyone. I am not sure what the issue is with this particular person, but I will take the time to address it. He came in the shop and was asking about putting an M16 bolt carrier assembly into an AR15. I then explained to him that the ATF would prosecute for that and it would not be a good idea to do that. He obviously did not like my answer and continued to talk about other companies that were installing the parts and shipping them out for sale to the public. I told him the only one I was aware of was Colt with a batch of 6920 rifles that were released with the M16 bolt assemblies. There was a giant to do with that and Colt finally got the ok from the ATF to keep them installed although the ATF still did not recommend doing it. It is a Federal offense to be in the possession of M16 full auto components if you own just a basic AR15. They deem that as intent to manufacture a machine gun. The same goes for other manufacturers as well. So if you own any of the HK rifles, they same thing applies. You can not be in the possession of any of the full auto bolt assemblies or trigger packs. I do not make the rules, I just follow them. So after explaining this to the customer more than once, I was done explaining. I did not yell anything at him. I was not rude to him. I just explained to him that it was illegal and I would not sell it to him unless he had a registered machine gun. I also offered to show him the letter Colt made available that they had received from the ATF about the rifles that were released from Colt with the full auto bolt assembly. He did not want to see it. I did not talk down to him. I did not yell across the shop. Then he left the shop. So I am not sure what his problem was, but I handled the same way I would handle it again if someone else would walk in the shop and asked the same thing. Part of my job is to keep people educated and hopefully out of legal trouble with their firearms. I do not need someone to get into trouble with the ATF because they were in possession of a gun part that they did not know that they could not legally possess. Here is the copy of the letter from Colt. I am not trying to cause problems, but at the same time, I am not going to get flamed and not tell my side of the story.
I was present during this entire exchange. Jason does a very good job of explaining what he knows about gun laws and always backs it up with facts. Jason did not talk down to the guy, he just offered him a chance to see the letter posted above. I appreciate Jason's integrity to only do what is right and do what he can to inform others of what the laws are.
Still haven't been there.
What is the correct address to his store?
Jason, I appreciate hearing your side of this story; I also appreciate the fact that you had more tact in your reply than others on this board. My post was not intended to 'flame' anyone, for an example of that, just read what "titsonritz" had to say about me above. Honestly, I posted a review that reflected how I felt after leaving your store. I respect the fact that you educate your customers but please respect the fact that your customers may be educated as well. My specific question when I came to the store, was whether or not you stocked M16 bolt carriers. A simple yes or no was all I wanted. You said "after explaining this to the customer more than once, I was done explaining", and that was my complaint - I felt I was receiving the exact same treatment that I get from Doug at GunCrafters (a guaranteed lecture). When I said that you shouted about showing me the ATF letter, it was because we had dropped the conversation, a few minutes had passed, and I was on the other side of the store, near the center showcase. You raised your voice to get my attention and because I was further away, I didn't mean it to sound like you were yelling at me, and I apologize if my post made it sound that way.
My Daniel Defense carbine exactly as received from the factory - now you are aware of two rifles released with M16 bolt carriers. Daniel Defense and LMT are two specific companies I can name off the top of my head which use M16 carriers exclusively in their semi-auto rifles.
By the letter you posted, all this shows is that these companies are putting NFA items into customer's hands illegally, so here is a more recent ATF letter regarding this topic.
I appreciate your response and your information. When you have dealings with the ATF, everything is a gray area. It is a little different for the consumer than it is for the retailer. The bottom line is this, if they take your firearm because they think there is something illegal about it, you are pretty much up a creek. They will take it back East and do their testing on it and then do a conclusion. So if they want to say that it expelled more than one round with a single depress of the trigger, then that's what the story is going to be and you WILL NOT have a leg to stand on. I have chosen to not to try to get in the middle of things like this and would rather try to keep my customers out of these scenarios also. This is in no way trying to disrespect you or what it is you are trying to do. I have dealt with this type of situation first hand before and I can tell you it is not fun. When you have someone telling you that your gun will do something that you know for 100% it will not, it is real frustrating. And when it is the three letter organization that we are speaking of, you really have no one that can help due to the fact they kinda writh their own rule book and do not really answer to anyone. And all of that aside, I am in no way even close to being like Doug. I'm sorry if that is how I made you feel. But I share none of that guys ethics, business skills, personality, or anything else other than we are both in the firearm industry!
Thank you Sir.
Just to give an example of the three letter agency not giving a damn. I just got off the phone with them because I had another charge on my bank account for my SOT (class 3 license) renewal for $500 which I had already paid for and the check had cleared the bank on July 1, 2011. Come to find out that it was the original check that they said they had lost when I applied for my SOT to begin with. The funny thing is, that was from November 2, 2010. So now I get to wait until they investigate it and I will eventually get a refund at their leisure. But in the mean time, I am out and extra $500 for nothing and I get to wait for them to do whatever they need to do. Now try going through this on a $13k rifle and you will understand why I do not like to get into any gray areas with these guys!
I have been only in the store 3 times. Two times I talked to the owner and he was great. The 3rd timed was less than great.
I went in to ask if they could order a part. The owner was talking to someone, so I started looking at the revolvers waiting it out. Someone came from the back and asked if I needed anything. I did spy a revolver I was curious about and asked about the price since non was showing.
The guy stated it was on consignment and he would find out. So he called up the owner of the revolver to find out how much. So far so good. But he never got the price. Just said the guy would be down in 10 minutes to talk to me about the revolver. And then he left and went back into the office.
So now I was standing around waiting for some guy I didn't know to try and sell me a revolver I only wanted to know the price on. And that was only out of boredom since I really wanted to order something else. I stood around a while more and said to heck with it and left. Without ordering the part I wanted or even knowing the price of a revolver in the display case which was supposed to be for sale.
But for what it is worth,his shop is NOT a Guncrafters and the other guy in the office was nice, just didn't get the finer points of customer service.
Sorry you didn't get the service you wanted. I was not part of this, but I will take the responsibility. Sometimes when we get new guns in that are on consignment, they get put on display before they get priced. Sometimes it takes a little time to get them appraised. Alot of the used stuff is my neighbors which makes it nice for people that want to wheel and deal on the price instead of having to play the phone tag game. I'm sorry he did not get there soon enough for you to get the answer to your question. We try to keep things priced as soon as it comes in, but once again, on the consignment stuff it doesn't always happen. So again, I am sorry it worked out the way it did. But I hope you give us the chance to earn your business again sometime down the road.
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