Article proving that ladder tests don't work for load development

[arakboss]

My guess is none of my rifles will achieve 1 MOA or better 20 shot group sizes.

View: https://youtu.be/zK-Nkwl6ZQU?feature=shared

 

[arakboss]

If 10 shot groups are good, 20 shot groups must be better.

View: https://youtu.be/ObEjm-c8xn4?feature=shared

 

[Mono1]

I have decided to use the 223 cartridge instead of 308 in my first attempt at using this single charge weight group testing method. I just received an order of primed 223 brass with a majority of it being Norma 223 cases. There are easily more than 200 Norma cases in the batch I received. That will allow me to use the same type of brass for all the loads I do.

I will use my Savage Axis (gen 1) for testing. It has a sporter barrel. That may make it more influenced by barrel whip than a heavier barrel.

I will still attempt to try 10 different powders, 20rnds each and will use a 55gr FMJ Berry's bullet for all loads.

I am may get started loading this weekend, if I can get my bench mess cleaned up during the week. Or I might try using this press at the dinner table when the wife is still sleeping.

RCBS Rockchucker IV Press With Table Top Wood Mount.

See my other ads here: https://www.northwestfirearms.com/search/2689995/?t=post&c[child_nodes]=1&c[content]=thread&c[nodes][0]=4&c[users]=arakboss&o=date For sale is a super nice condition RCBS Rockchucker press. This press currently sits on an Oak wood mount system, for use on a table top...

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Sounds like a Project, E.

The suspense is killing me.

 

[arakboss]

I have decided to use the 223 cartridge instead of 308 in my first attempt at using this single charge weight group testing method. I just received an order of primed 223 brass with a majority of it being Norma 223 cases. There are easily more than 200 Norma cases in the batch I received. That will allow me to use the same type of brass for all the loads I do.

I will use my Savage Axis (gen 1) for testing. It has a sporter barrel. That may make it more influenced by barrel whip than a heavier barrel.

I will still attempt to try 10 different powders, 20rnds each and will use a 55gr FMJ Berry's bullet for all loads.

I am may get started loading this weekend, if I can get my bench mess cleaned up during the week. Or I might try using this press at the dinner table when the wife is still sleeping.

RCBS Rockchucker IV Press With Table Top Wood Mount.

See my other ads here: https://www.northwestfirearms.com/search/2689995/?t=post&c[child_nodes]=1&c[content]=thread&c[nodes][0]=4&c[users]=arakboss&o=date For sale is a super nice condition RCBS Rockchucker press. This press currently sits on an Oak wood mount system, for use on a table top...

www.northwestfirearms.com

I think I have 7 different types of powders loaded up as of today. There are numerous others I want to try, including some powders that aren't normally used for 223 loads. Some consider too fast and some consider too slow.

I am going to sort out the rest of the Norma cases I have and determine how many different powders I can load up in Norma brass. I suspect I will be able to get around 15 to 20 different types loaded up. It takes me about 30min to load up each batch of 20rnds.

Tomorrow I am going to load up 20ea with 8208xbr and Reloder 15.

 

[arakboss]

Seems pretty simple. /s

View: https://youtu.be/FdwN5qlWMVA?feature=shared

 

[arakboss]

I think I have 7 different types of powders loaded up as of today. There are numerous others I want to try, including some powders that aren't normally used for 223 loads. Some consider too fast and some consider too slow.

I am going to sort out the rest of the Norma cases I have and determine how many different powders I can load up in Norma brass. I suspect I will be able to get around 15 to 20 different types loaded up. It takes me about 30min to load up each batch of 20rnds.

Tomorrow I am going to load up 20ea with 8208xbr and Reloder 15.

Once I have shot all the rounds I have put together, I will be able to put together a nice average MOA number. That number should represent the average MOA capability of the rifle. I am not sure what to expect for group sizes but I do expect that most of them will be similar in size. The groups with too fast or too slow powders may be outliers.

 

[arakboss]

I am amazed at how different these group sizes were with different muzzle devices.

View: https://youtu.be/uoBXTrngLxg?feature=shared

View: https://youtu.be/mqnAr-QBOzc?feature=shared

 

[arakboss]

I am amazed at how different these group sizes were with different muzzle devices.

View: https://youtu.be/uoBXTrngLxg?feature=shared

View: https://youtu.be/mqnAr-QBOzc?feature=shared

This type of experience goes to show me that finding a load, or combination of parts that shoot the best groups, is never going to be easy. Multiply that by how many rifles I have, it seems like an impossible task.

 

[Mono1]

Multiply that by how many rifles I have, it seems like an impossible task.

Dude!

Applaud your efforts at this experiment. But, I am thinking you need to cap the list of powders at some point or you are likely to wear out your barrel(s) before you find optimum.

Cuz you still have a long way to go, after...

Finding the optimal powder then
Finding the optimal powder weight
Finding the optimal Seating Depth of the projectile

And really, this should be for just ONE particular Rifle.

 

[arakboss]

Dude!

Applaud your efforts at this experiment. But, I am thinking you need to cap the list of powders at some point or you are likely to wear out your barrel(s) before you find optimum.

Cuz you still have a long way to go, after...

Finding the optimal powder then
Finding the optimal powder weight
Finding the optimal Seating Depth of the projectile

And really, this should be for just ONE particular Rifle.

"Finding the optimal powder weight
Finding the optimal Seating Depth of the projectile"


I thought this 20rnd group process was suppose to eliminate most of that work.

 

[arakboss]

Dude!

Applaud your efforts at this experiment. But, I am thinking you need to cap the list of powders at some point or you are likely to wear out your barrel(s) before you find optimum.

Cuz you still have a long way to go, after...

Finding the optimal powder then
Finding the optimal powder weight
Finding the optimal Seating Depth of the projectile

And really, this should be for just ONE particular Rifle.

My goal with this process is to find out what the average MOA capability of my rifle is. If I was trying to find the average price of a meal out, the more restaurants I tried, the more accurate my average should be?

 

[Koda]

My goal with this process is to find out what the average MOA capability of my rifle is. If I was trying to find the average price of a meal out, the more restaurants I tried, the more accurate my average should be?

Isnt that a totally different process than what the Quinlan Neville large sample size (LSS) test is for?
Im not going to reread the thread but I believe you originally wanted to see if the LSS test would give you an accurate handload? And yes your correct the LSS test eliminates all that other load development work. It basically is just a statistical way to get lucky on a handload charge weight.

 

[arakboss]

Isnt that a totally different process than what the Quinlan Neville large sample size (LSS) test is for?
Im not going to reread the thread but I believe you originally wanted to see if the LSS test would give you an accurate handload? And yes your correct the LSS test eliminates all that other load development work. It basically is just a statistical way to get lucky on a handload charge weight.

I think it's suppose to show you whether your rifle likes a particular powder or not?

I like the aspect of using larger group sizes. If I was going to find the average MOA capability of my rifle with factory ammo, I would want to try as many different brands of ammo as possible to get the most accurate average.

 

[Koda]

I think it's suppose to show you whether your rifle likes a particular powder or not?

Now were back full circle to the whole debate on the LSS method. The problem with it is there is more to a load than just the powder itself that determines if a rifle "likes" that load. In your test, everything else has to all be loaded exactly the same and only then if you find one loads powder groups best what you really found was what charge weight is best for that bullet and seating depth.
This process wont tell you what your average group size is because youd need to compare other different components than just the powder... and if you did then you wont be finding what powder groups best.

I like the aspect of using larger group sizes. If I was going to find the average MOA capability of my rifle with factory ammo, I would want to try as many different brands of ammo as possible to get the most accurate average.

yes.
But why? Would you zero on this average group that way you can have a rifle that literally shoots any ammo without rezeroing different brands?

 

[Mono1]

I thought this 20rnd group process was suppose to eliminate most of that work.

 

[arakboss]

Now were back full circle to the whole debate on the LSS method. The problem with it is there is more to a load than just the powder itself that determines if a rifle "likes" that load. In your test, everything else has to all be loaded exactly the same and only then if you find one loads powder groups best what you really found was what charge weight is best for that bullet and seating depth.
This process wont tell you what your average group size is because youd need to compare other different components than just the powder... and if you did then you wont be finding what powder groups best.

yes.
But why? Would you zero on this average group that way you can have a rifle that literally shoots any ammo without rezeroing different brands?

I would not expect to be able to zero an optic to cover all brands or loads.

My guess was they believe powder has the most influence on group size or else they would have selected a different component to change out for testing. Imagine if their method used the bullet instead of powder. Pick one powder and try a bunch of different bullets. Is that likely to give somebody more success?

Honestly I don't have much faith in their method except for using the larger group size.

My expectation is that all 20rnd group sizes are going to be pretty similar in size. The exception will be powders well outside of the ideal range for the cartridge.

Often times when somebody is shooting 5rnd groups, they will have a "flier". In a 20rnd group those "fliers" will look more like part of the group rather than a flier.

There are so many variables that can effect group size I think it's impossible to try all the different combinations.

 

[arakboss]

Rifle Load Development: How To Find The Best Powder & Load For Accuracy

How do you find the optimal rifle powder and load? Rifle load development can often be a trial-and-...

precisionrifleblog.com

I haven't tried Gordon's Reloading Program yet but I am guessing it could help speed up powder selection for a given rifle and set of components.

 

[osprey]

The best way to pick best powder is with a CHRONOGRAPH! If you don't have one or are not using one, you owe it to yourself to start using one. I usually start with only 2 or 3 powders and see what the chrono tells me. I also do use GRT to help with initial powder selection.

 

[arakboss]

The best way to pick best powder is with a CHRONOGRAPH! If you don't have one or are not using one, you owe it to yourself to start using one. I usually start with only 2 or 3 powders and see what the chrono tells me. I also do use GRT to help with initial powder selection.

How will the chronograph show whether the powder is a good fit for the vibration timing of the firearms barrel?

 

[osprey]

It won't but it will show powders with good combustion properties which is the first step in finding an accurate load. I don't waste time on powders that do not show low es, sd #'s. The rest can be tuned by charge weight and seating depth. GRT will usually allow you to pick a couple powders that have good combustion but like anything else you have to have good inputs. Also, if you are not working with bullets with decent consistency, it is going to be a long day.