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The US military went to 1:7 twist to stabilize the long tailed tracer rounds; from a 1:14 (earliest), and 1:12 twist (most common pre A2s), in their M16s
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yes
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Depends on application. The trend towards heavy for caliber high bc bullets requires a faster twist to properly stabilize the bullets. Traditional big game calibers are every bit as capable as some of the new whiz bang offerings when a faster twist rate is applied. 270 win comes to mind.
I shoot a lot of heavy monolithic bullets subsonic out of a 458 socom 10" pistol and a fast twist is very necessary to stabilize.
If one were setting up a varmint AR 15 in .223 and wanted to shoot lighter bullets 55gr and less, a fast twist 1-7 could be a hinderance to accuracy. Same gun shooting 77gr pills would be a better match.
The average hunter using average bc cup and core bullets who will never shoot beyond 400 yds, will be served fine with traditional slower twists. The biggest gains would be for some of the long range competitors 1000 and beyond who shoot long heavy high bc pills.
Pick your chambering and your bullet you intend to shoot. Based off those choices, spec a proper twist that will stabilize the bullet at the expected velocities. Rather straight forward really.
I shoot a lot of heavy monolithic bullets subsonic out of a 458 socom 10" pistol and a fast twist is very necessary to stabilize.
If one were setting up a varmint AR 15 in .223 and wanted to shoot lighter bullets 55gr and less, a fast twist 1-7 could be a hinderance to accuracy. Same gun shooting 77gr pills would be a better match.
The average hunter using average bc cup and core bullets who will never shoot beyond 400 yds, will be served fine with traditional slower twists. The biggest gains would be for some of the long range competitors 1000 and beyond who shoot long heavy high bc pills.
Pick your chambering and your bullet you intend to shoot. Based off those choices, spec a proper twist that will stabilize the bullet at the expected velocities. Rather straight forward really.
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If you have an ar-10 get a 8.6 BLK barrel. 1:3 twist rate spins the bullet at 500,000 rpm.
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Maybe...depending on the purpose of the rifle and projectile.
"Better" is a very broad and loose term.
Better for what...? ...better for who....?
No doubt a fast twist and certain weight projectile is "better " for some uses , rather than a slow twist...
However the opposite can also be said.
Specialized twists / rifles are excellent for what it is that they are specialized for...
But that does not mean that they are excellent or even useful for anything else.
As always...it is best to match the firearm and the projectile to suit the task at hand.
Andy
"Better" is a very broad and loose term.
Better for what...? ...better for who....?
No doubt a fast twist and certain weight projectile is "better " for some uses , rather than a slow twist...
However the opposite can also be said.
Specialized twists / rifles are excellent for what it is that they are specialized for...
But that does not mean that they are excellent or even useful for anything else.
As always...it is best to match the firearm and the projectile to suit the task at hand.
Andy
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No.
Only for bullets of compatible sectional density with said twist.
To address the OP's observation of the "trend" to faster twists, it is all part of the current fad to "re-invent" existing cartridges by loading "long-for-caliber" bullets toward the activity of long-range shooting.
@osprey encapsulated what is important here for hunters: 400 yards is a VERY long shot to be taken at big game in a field situation. The vast majority of hunters in the field should never attempt such a shot unless at a previously wounded animal (demonstrated ability to "bang steel" notwithstanding).
At practical hunting ranges, manufacturers and shooters long ago came to relatively well-agreed twists for hunting caliber guns/bullets. Those twists still hold up in usage and performance. Add length to your bullet, you (usually) add weight, lose velocity.
Merely arriving on target is all that is important for a bullet headed for steel, while a deer bullet's job is less than half done.
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Here's how I see it. Faster twist better for long bullets, slower twist for sorter ones. Long or short relative to "standard" projectile length.
A long, heavy bullet will not achieve the speed before it leaves the barrel that a shorter, lighter one will. That also means the heavy bullet is not leaving the barrel with the same rate of spin (RPM) as the lighter one. If a bullet isn't spinning fast enough it will wobble and occasionally tumble. Increasing the twist rate will boost the RPMs of the longer, slower bullet, keeping it stable.
On the inverse, too fast of a twist will increase bullet RPMs to a point it's possible for the bullet to lose its skin through centrifugal force. (extreme example)
My Ruger 30-06 has a 1:10 twist. I like to shoot 180gr bullets and they weren't normally quite as accurate as 150s. This is a rifle I'd like to try a 1:9 twist on. I think it could help with the accuracy, but it's an expensive test for a hunting rifle that's never been shot past 400 yards.
In the end, I found a load that settled down the group sizes and lost interest in that project, for now. The gun has been rechambered to 30-06AI, which leads me to think the boosted velocity is enough to help with stabilization. It's more accurate now than it was before the AI conversion.
I may eventually put the twist experiment to test later. IF I have this gun redone to regular ol 30-06, I believe I am goin to specify a 1:9 twist. The 06 was designed around 150-ish grain bullets and I exclusively shoot 180gr. In this instance I believe it can't hurt. Going back to 30-06 will slow the bullet down, thus losing RPMs and a 1:9 will probably put the RPMs back to where these longer, heavier bullets are happy.
Theory on my part,
A long, heavy bullet will not achieve the speed before it leaves the barrel that a shorter, lighter one will. That also means the heavy bullet is not leaving the barrel with the same rate of spin (RPM) as the lighter one. If a bullet isn't spinning fast enough it will wobble and occasionally tumble. Increasing the twist rate will boost the RPMs of the longer, slower bullet, keeping it stable.
On the inverse, too fast of a twist will increase bullet RPMs to a point it's possible for the bullet to lose its skin through centrifugal force. (extreme example)
My Ruger 30-06 has a 1:10 twist. I like to shoot 180gr bullets and they weren't normally quite as accurate as 150s. This is a rifle I'd like to try a 1:9 twist on. I think it could help with the accuracy, but it's an expensive test for a hunting rifle that's never been shot past 400 yards.
In the end, I found a load that settled down the group sizes and lost interest in that project, for now. The gun has been rechambered to 30-06AI, which leads me to think the boosted velocity is enough to help with stabilization. It's more accurate now than it was before the AI conversion.
I may eventually put the twist experiment to test later. IF I have this gun redone to regular ol 30-06, I believe I am goin to specify a 1:9 twist. The 06 was designed around 150-ish grain bullets and I exclusively shoot 180gr. In this instance I believe it can't hurt. Going back to 30-06 will slow the bullet down, thus losing RPMs and a 1:9 will probably put the RPMs back to where these longer, heavier bullets are happy.
Theory on my part,
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When it comes to ballistics and rifle accuracy, there are very few absolutes.
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Sticking a 55gn 22-250 in my long free bore 22 creed (7 twist, 20in) made for some crazy tumblers lol.
Really I wanted to see how they'd fire form.
Some were 8ft to left/right.
I see people making 2 barrels for 22creed, 12t for varmint and 7-8t for heavy bullets.
Really I wanted to see how they'd fire form.
Some were 8ft to left/right.
I see people making 2 barrels for 22creed, 12t for varmint and 7-8t for heavy bullets.
Absolutely.
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Our resident "Tough Nut".
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Had to 've cracked it to know that.
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Dayum, wonder what she has hidden in those folds.
Why don't you take a peek and not let us know the results
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I bet there's some sort of mushrooms growing there.
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I'm currently on the twist vs bullet length journey right now, I just didn't know it.
I'm in the development stage of copper monolithics with my 30-06 and didn't even give the 1:10 twist of my rifle a second thought because I already had the 168 gr E-Tips. I know the "rules" re longer bullet = faster twist, but mind didn't catch up with this fact until I chased this thing to hell and back and I could not get any better than 1.5" groups. Upon my return from hell I happened to have both the 165 Accubond and the E-Tip on the bench and it hit me, the E-Tip is way longer than the Accubond by almost .200"
. The AB shot extremely well out of this rifle (photo below was verification of that load, cold bore at 100 yds), so this morning I loaded up a few rounds of the 150 gr E-Tip which better matches the AB and will try them this upcoming Monday.
So Apples and Oranges: My gravitation to the 168 E-Tip comes from using this very bullet in the Winchester Model 54 that I retired four years ago. This rifle with it's 1:10 twist shot the 168 gr bullet to .750" all day long, so why would I think it would not at least do the same in this new rifle? I am only guessing, but throat erosion could more than likely the answer. I am not going to dig the 54 out to measure it, but I am sure that there could be enough wear to simulate a .200" or more jump which could be advantageous to stability via a tad bit more oomph before it hit the lands. I have read that up to .250" jump with these bullets is acceptable, but I never went below .100" with the new rifle opting for the smaller bullet. Times a gunna tell.
I'm in the development stage of copper monolithics with my 30-06 and didn't even give the 1:10 twist of my rifle a second thought because I already had the 168 gr E-Tips. I know the "rules" re longer bullet = faster twist, but mind didn't catch up with this fact until I chased this thing to hell and back and I could not get any better than 1.5" groups. Upon my return from hell I happened to have both the 165 Accubond and the E-Tip on the bench and it hit me, the E-Tip is way longer than the Accubond by almost .200"
. The AB shot extremely well out of this rifle (photo below was verification of that load, cold bore at 100 yds), so this morning I loaded up a few rounds of the 150 gr E-Tip which better matches the AB and will try them this upcoming Monday.
So Apples and Oranges: My gravitation to the 168 E-Tip comes from using this very bullet in the Winchester Model 54 that I retired four years ago. This rifle with it's 1:10 twist shot the 168 gr bullet to .750" all day long, so why would I think it would not at least do the same in this new rifle? I am only guessing, but throat erosion could more than likely the answer. I am not going to dig the 54 out to measure it, but I am sure that there could be enough wear to simulate a .200" or more jump which could be advantageous to stability via a tad bit more oomph before it hit the lands. I have read that up to .250" jump with these bullets is acceptable, but I never went below .100" with the new rifle opting for the smaller bullet. Times a gunna tell.
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- #20
Twist rate.
One of the hardest things for me to get out of my head when switching to copper bullets in an older slow twist rifle is giving up heavier bullets.
In my experience selecting the optimal bullet comes down to balancing 3 things: case volume, twist rate, and throat lenght, all must be considered. If you want to go heavier, find one that fits your throat, twist, but doesnt compromise case volume and that will be the heaviest you can go with great results.
When switching to solids ( copper) bullet length is proportional to the case volume needed to increase the speed to offset the lighter bullet, a longer throat length will allow a heavier copper bullet as long as case volume and twist rate isnt compromised.
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