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AR training distances

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by Kevatc, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I am curious where others spend the bulk of their AR training in terms of target distance. I guess there could be an unlikely scenario outside of my house where 25 yards might be the max. In my house it could be from 5 feet to perhaps 30 feet but most likely in the 5 to 15 feet area. With this in mind I've been spending probably 75% of a session shooting from about 5-8 feet to maybe 10 yards. I've been working hard on getting on target fast but smooth and being very cognizant of the offset at such close distances.

    Am I missing anything? Any suggestions?
     
  2. The Duck

    The Duck Oregon Active Member

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    It's called a, "Long Rifle" for a reason; get a nice handgun for home defense...
     
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  3. addiction

    addiction Monroe Wa Active Member

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    I respectfully disagree, there is a reason that the military guys stay on the rifle when they clear houses, they are faster on target with a deadlier round.

    To the OP, I suggest you train with both, set up a course of fire equivalent to what you think you would experience, and run the drill with the AR and with the pistol ( I do this all the time, the AR is always faster....and more accurate, pistols are so you can fight your way to your AR).
     
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  4. RBid

    RBid Wilsonville, OR Well-Known Member

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    Most engagements for civilians will be at home defense distances, so training there makes the most sense. On the flip side, those distances require the least effort to master. I think 50/50 between 5-50 feet and 100 yards would be a reasonable training split if you're looking to be somewhat well rounded. If your goal is to squeeze maximum value out of every round, training 5-50 feet is probably the most bang for your buck.
     
  5. The Duck

    The Duck Oregon Active Member

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    Some people of forums just kill me;

    There is a tremendous difference between the soldiers clearing a house in theater vs. Joe Smith clearing his house in suburbia-hell.

    Despite the military desire not to have unnecessary collateral damage in any operation, the liability of soldier’s actions is zero while within the scope of the operation and SOP. While Joe Smith clearing his house with an AR, firing a .223, has a great amount of liability to where each and every round goes.

    Now; Swat does this, Military does that, Special Forces does this, etc… That is all irrelevant with Mr. Joe Smith puts a .223 in the neighbor or even worse the neighbor child.

    Now if you want to be Joe Smith with the AR, go for it. For myself; I would rather clear a house with a sidearm and reserve an AR for a more appropriate threat...

    If I have a situation that 18 rounds of 9mm cannot solve, then that is a problem…
     
  6. oknow

    oknow amboy wa. Well-Known Member

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    you might check your facts first.
    there is less over penetration with a 223/556 than with a 9mm.

    An interior wall façade constructed of two layers of sheet rock and plywood.

    .223 Remington
    Hornady has been offering their TAP (Tactical Application Police) defensive line for some time now and it has seen success in real-world encounters. Featured herein would be their 60-grain TAP load chambered in .223 Remington. When fired from my CMMG rifle, this loaded averaged 2,855 FPS (feet per second) over a Shooting Chrony F1 chronograph.

    Benching the rifle, once I had the EOTech optic properly zeroed, I put some test patterns downrange. The resulting groups were predictably tight. A tight 1.17-inch three-shot cluster at 50 yards proved the carbine and ammo combination could be counted on.

    9x19mm
    For the 9mm pistol ammunition side, the new Winchester PDX1 brand was tested. This ammunition line is specifically marketed for personal protection. The load in question was a 147-grain bonded JHP. If this bullet looks familiar it is because the copper-colored projectile is the heart of Winchester’s Ranger LE ammunition line.
    Over my chronograph, this load averaged 1,140 FPS from the 16-inch barrel. Again, from 50 yards I fired several test groups on paper. The best group was right at 1.25 inches.


    Entry holes: 9mm (upper left) and spectacular .223 wound cavity.

    Real-World Test Conditions
    This review is about much more than guns and ammo—it’s about performance. I needed to construct some realistic test barriers and bullet-capturing devices. Up first would be an interior wall façade. This barrier was built using two layers of half-inch sheet rock and a single layer of quarter-inch plywood. This would represent a standard interior wall construction, minus 2×4 studs. An additional portion of the “wall” would include two 2×4 boards combined with the original sheet rock and plywood construction.

    Capturing the fired bullets would be accomplished through the construction of a bullet trap of sorts. This contraption was more of a rectangular trough made of wood with an open top. Into the bullet box I place thick squares of waxy ballistic media.

    First up was the 9mm carbine. After placing the wallboard material in front of the bullet trap, I took aim. From a distance of 7 yards, I fired a single round of the Winchester ammunition. The bullet passed completely through and entered the waxy media.

    Step two was to fire the .223 cartridge from Hornady. Same scenario, shot through the wallboard into the wax media at 7 yards. On the front of the wallboard was an unimpressive .22 caliber hole. However, on the other side, the results were a bit more spectacular. The projectile did its job very well and expanded violently. A hole nearly three 3 inches across and as deep was left in the wax media.

    Next on the agenda was to fire both carbines into the 2×4 and wallboard material. This would represent nearly 6 inches of common building material found inside normal interior walls. Both the 9mm and .223 Remington rounds passed completely through.

    Taking a moment to closely examine the bullet box, I pried apart the layers of wax media and found that the .223 TAP round had penetrated just shy of 8 inches. At that depth I discovered several bullet fragments. The projectile had come apart completely.

    Moving on, we found that the 9mm projectile had traveled a full 15 inches into the wax media after passing through the wall façade. It had not deformed and looked almost good enough to be reloaded
    .


    One round of 9mm fired through a car door. Note the mild fragmentation.

    We Report, You Decide
    As for our initial conversation, was the 9mm carbine less likely to “over-penetrate” than the .223? Based upon our experiments, I believe we can see how this is not necessarily the case at all. Both rounds easily passed through the basic wallboard material and then through the thicker wall and double 2×4 target. What was most impressive was the fact that the .223 round deposited 100 percent of its energy into 8 inches of wax media. Consider that the torso on most human attackers will be anywhere from 10 to 15 inches, depending on the angle and human variables. It would seem that the purpose-designed .223 Remington load would be less likely to pass through an attacker and continue on through an interior wall than the 9mm fired from the same platform.

    Before we completely discount the 9mm carbine, it does have some positive attributes. If you own a 9mm handgun commonality of ammunition is a plus. Also, 9mm FMJ training ammunition costs about half the price of .223 FMJ training ammunition. That’s twice the trigger time for the price.

    From a practical, household standpoint, both platforms provide ample accuracy and few felons would want to be shot with either gun. The bottom line is that a pistol cartridge, even when fired from a carbine, is still going to perform like a pistol cartridge. The carbine platform has the advantage of being easier to control, aim, and hit your target with. Carbines or rifles are more imposing than handguns.

    When it comes to defending your life with a firearm, base your choices on fact, not supposition. Secure some professional training and practice. Keep shooting straight and shooting safe.
     
  7. waldow777

    waldow777 Hillsboro Active Member

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    People tend to think AR's only shoot FMJ's. : )
     
  8. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    The average shot a police "sniper" makes is around 60 yards.
    This is generally from prone or a very steady rest.
    I like to bounce empty 12 ga shotgun shells from around 15-40 yards offhand.
    It's amazing how fast you can go with irons and a large aperture.. probably approaching 2-3 per second.. depending on distance.
    Just shoot your rifle.. it's fun!
     
  9. The Duck

    The Duck Oregon Active Member

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    So you can regurgitate information to be your own: 9mm vs .223 | Tactical Life

    I also like the fact that you argued a fact that I was not making or addressing, but I can see why a person could... (eg Penetration)

    Another nice link: http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=26
     
  10. oknow

    oknow amboy wa. Well-Known Member

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    not trying to take credit for the info just passing on the word.

    Despite the military desire not to have unnecessary collateral damage in any operation, the liability of soldier’s actions is zero while within the scope of the operation and SOP. While Joe Smith clearing his house with an AR, firing a .223, has a great amount of liability to where each and every round goes.

    where did I misunderstand the fact that you were making or addressing.
     
  11. addiction

    addiction Monroe Wa Active Member

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    Others have made some great points already supporting my comment, I will add to them and say what the military and SWAT use by choice when they can choose anything, tells you what they think is the best weapon for the job. Why would I choose to use a pistol when an AR is a better choice?

    As for liability, I think I would have a much better defense for liability, lower penetration is one aspect, easier to aim and being more accurate is an other. Choosing the weapon that I am most likely to get on target and most likely to shoot accurately reduces my liability not increases it.

    Lastly, I would never ever clear my house, leave that for the pros, hunker down and defend a strong hold. If you want to be Mr. Joe Smith clearing your house and walking into ambushes, go ahead.
     
  12. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I have several handguns. That's not the point.
     
  13. timac

    timac Loading Magazines! Well-Known Member

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    Here is a basic set of carbine drills with ranges. You could use 8" targets for beyond 25 yards. We train 50/50, short/long. I hope this helps you out.

    Determine how fast you should perform these drills. A good rule of thumb is to base your speed on your accuracy. If you are missing the black you probably need to slow down to work on your accuracy and your fundamentals, but if you are driving every round in the center of target, then you need to speed it up.

    3” DOTS or B3 at 7 YARDS


    • Low ready: one shot 4 times
    • High ready: one shot 4 times
    • Low ready: two shots, one target 4 times
    • High ready: two shots, one target 4 times
    • Low ready: two shots, one shot each on two separate targets 4 times
    • High ready: two shots, one shot each on two separate targets 4 times

    8” DOTS, BODY or B8 at 10 YARDS


    • Pivot left and right 90 degrees and 180 degrees: start at Low ready facing away from the target: turn (each direction), four shots, two shots each on two separate targets 2 times each direction (left and right 90 degrees and 180 degree pivot)
    • Transition drill: start with no magazine in your carbine. Click, transition to pistol, two shots or dry fire once 5 times.

    8″ DOTS, BODY or B8 at 25 YARDS


    • Reload drill: from ready, one shot, Emergency reload, one shot. Recover magazine and perform Tactical reload to set up drill 4 times.
    • Soft malfunction (fail to fire) drill: start with an empty chamber in your carbine, full magazine, click-tap, rack, engage with two shots 4 times.
    • Standing to kneeling to prone: two shots each position 5 times.

    8″ DOTS, BODY or B8 at 15 YARDS


    • Shoot on the move (box drill): Two targets, first run with 1 shot each, second with 2 shots each.

    1. Start at left forward corner, right rear diagonal, forward, left lateral, rear to a forward right diagonal.
    2. Start at the right forward corner, left rear diagonal, forward, right lateral, rear to a forward left diagonal.

    Additional tips:

    1. If unable to move at the range, do the static drills both strong and weak side or double up on strong side drills. Practice movement and manipulation at home dry.
    2. While doing the 7 yard and turn drills, load multiples of 8 rounds if you wish to do more transitions.
    3. Remember to utilize the workspace when performing all reloads and immediate action drills.
    4. Remember at less than 25 yards/meters transition to secondary weapon to stay in the fight. At distances greater than 25 yards/meters seek cover and perform immediate action to clear carbine stoppages.
     
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  14. addiction

    addiction Monroe Wa Active Member

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  15. erudne

    erudne The Pie Matrix PPL Say Sleeping W/Your Rifle Is A bad Thing? Bronze Supporter

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    As valuable as those drills are I believe it is far more important to drill at long range, out to 350 yards, it is at extended range that a shooter is far more likely to miss for a variety of reasons.
     
  16. addiction

    addiction Monroe Wa Active Member

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    While I agree at some level long range is harder, but when you add the component of a life threatening opponent, close in is just as hard if not harder. Your opponent has the same short range advantage as you do, so your real trained advantage had better be accuracy at very high speed. Training to hit a target(s) very quickly and accurately is really hard to do, just go to a IDPA or USPSA match and see how many misses there are, and the only pressure there is a clock. Plus if you look at police shootings, they miss more often than they hit the BG.

    Lastly, I personally have a very hard time imagining a scenario where I would engage a BG out over 100 yards. Firstly, I need to be sure they really are a BG and they are really a threat to me, beyond 100 yards, heck, beyond 25 yards that would be very hard to do. Plus if they are beyond 100 yards or so, I can duck and cover and avoid the fight all together. That would be my choice every time.

    That said, if someone is engaging me from 100 yards+ it sure would be nice to know I could hit them at will, if I could figure out where they are shooting from :)

    So I train, long distance as well, but have a heavier focus on close range
     
  17. erudne

    erudne The Pie Matrix PPL Say Sleeping W/Your Rifle Is A bad Thing? Bronze Supporter

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    Everybody knows you stick a double barrel shotgun out the door an pull the trigger(s)!
     
  18. coyote223

    coyote223 NW Oregon Stamp Collector,,,

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    Oh no, don't even open the door. Crazy Joe :nuts: Biden says we can just shoot the shotgun through the door.
     
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  19. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Timac thanks for the drills. I'll give them a try next time I go.


    350 yards for self defense drills???? Are you daft? :paranoid:
     
  20. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    +1 to these drills. I shoot them on occasion and they are a good challenge and fun as well.