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Applesseed Article at NYTimes
- Thread Starter smurf hunter
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Well I finally read the dang thing....Thanks Smurfhunter...
To answer 8balls question; Yes, I was shootboss at a shoot in Monroe.
It was my choice to not hold anymore events at that location.
National level leaders agreed with me...So, no more shoots at that location.
Any other questions?
W44
To answer 8balls question; Yes, I was shootboss at a shoot in Monroe.
It was my choice to not hold anymore events at that location.
National level leaders agreed with me...So, no more shoots at that location.
Any other questions?
W44
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Translation: "I only pay attention to news sources that echo my preconceived ideas. I trust right-wing nutcase bloggers more than professional news organizations."
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Your useless commentary tells me one thing, you CEF1959 did not read the article, instead choosing to make a comment strictly on the post above yours instead of the article.
So I challenge you CEF1959 to read the article and come back with a summary and your thoughts on the picture the NYT was attempting to paint.
I have my summary ready if you wuss out!
Your useless commentary tells me one thing, you CEF1959 did not read the article, instead choosing to make a comment strictly on the post above yours instead of the article.
So I challenge you CEF1959 to read the article and come back with a summary and your thoughts on the picture the NYT was attempting to paint.
I have my summary ready if you wuss out!
I have had him on ignore for some time, if you hadn't of quoted him I wouldn't have recieved the usual liberal cheap shot. Funny how when the left gets critisized they think you only listen to right wing exstreemist. I try to find sources that speak the thruth, liberals can't remember what the truth is.The NYT has had a series of articles proven to be lies by the writers. I suspect CEF is so used to liberal lies he can't make any comparisons to figure what truth is. Again, when has the NYT ever been pro second amendment?
jj
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Hi, I'm Wheeler44 both on this forum and the Appleseed forum (Project Appleseed - National Headquarters - Volunteers Welcome - Index) I am the regional coordinator for Project Appleseed in Washington and Oregon. I have been with Appleseed since some time in the spring of '08..
This article is about as much as I would expect from the journalist and the fish wrapper that ran it...
The authors' bias is apparent early in the piece as he immediately started to try to find someone in the program to spout some off topic dialogue. As far as I can tell he was unsuccessful. I expected that ( I know quite a few instructors, and Fred is very clear about staying on topic.)
What I didn't expect was the back handed attempt associate us with the Huttaree and Steven Gray ...Much less through events that transpired here in the great Northwest.
The author (or his sources) were a little off on some details regarding Appleseed and the "Militia Training Grounds" in Monroe WA.
There were three Appleseed shoots held on Mr. Faire's property in the Spring of '09. I was shoot boss at one event. We asked Mr. Faire to rename his facility and he did (as far as I know, anyway) since we are very conscious of the term Militia in its' current usage.
Mr. Faire "trained" with the Huttaree member some 2 or 3 years before Appleseed was in the Northwest. Mr. Gray was arrested sometime after we decided to stop holding events at Mr. Faires property.
Yet these seemingly unrelated events appeared to be the most detailed part of the story. Well, and the fact that Mr. Faire practices "moving off the X" thousands of times and is ready draw down on any Deputy that thinks that he knows a better way remove a tree from a public right of way, nearly destroying the space time continuum of Snohomish County in the process.
Mr. Faire is not a representative of Project Appleseed nor is he representative of the shooters that I have met at Appleseed shoots. We shoot rifles, exclusively.
The only Militia that we discuss at Appleseed formed up on April 19, 1775 and the only politicians that we discuss did their politickin' at the same time.
Too bad that the author didn't grab a hold of one of those "Liberty Training Rifles" for something other than an object to ridicule and listen to the stories of our Forefathers' fight for freedom..He might have learned something worth knowin'.
W44
This is my personal response and in no way the "official' response from "National"..
This article is about as much as I would expect from the journalist and the fish wrapper that ran it...
The authors' bias is apparent early in the piece as he immediately started to try to find someone in the program to spout some off topic dialogue. As far as I can tell he was unsuccessful. I expected that ( I know quite a few instructors, and Fred is very clear about staying on topic.)
What I didn't expect was the back handed attempt associate us with the Huttaree and Steven Gray ...Much less through events that transpired here in the great Northwest.
The author (or his sources) were a little off on some details regarding Appleseed and the "Militia Training Grounds" in Monroe WA.
There were three Appleseed shoots held on Mr. Faire's property in the Spring of '09. I was shoot boss at one event. We asked Mr. Faire to rename his facility and he did (as far as I know, anyway) since we are very conscious of the term Militia in its' current usage.
Mr. Faire "trained" with the Huttaree member some 2 or 3 years before Appleseed was in the Northwest. Mr. Gray was arrested sometime after we decided to stop holding events at Mr. Faires property.
Yet these seemingly unrelated events appeared to be the most detailed part of the story. Well, and the fact that Mr. Faire practices "moving off the X" thousands of times and is ready draw down on any Deputy that thinks that he knows a better way remove a tree from a public right of way, nearly destroying the space time continuum of Snohomish County in the process.
Mr. Faire is not a representative of Project Appleseed nor is he representative of the shooters that I have met at Appleseed shoots. We shoot rifles, exclusively.
The only Militia that we discuss at Appleseed formed up on April 19, 1775 and the only politicians that we discuss did their politickin' at the same time.
Too bad that the author didn't grab a hold of one of those "Liberty Training Rifles" for something other than an object to ridicule and listen to the stories of our Forefathers' fight for freedom..He might have learned something worth knowin'.
W44
This is my personal response and in no way the "official' response from "National"..
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Re-Translation: "I don't like it when people criticize my be-loved, biased news organization. So I have to childishly criticize those that criticize them."
Don't be a hypocrite is all I ask...you can have your own personal views and opinions (that's what makes this country so great). But belittling someone for voicing their opinion is just slinging mud in the playground.
It's crap like this that makes this forum trash...you might have some degree, knowledge or experiance that would be usefull to others; however, who will listen to someone that displays such arrogance?
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1. I resented the fact that I had to "register" in order to view the article. (I wonder what they will do with the "other" answers to all their stupid questions).
2. The bias of the article was so thick that I couldn't get past page one... and I chose not to bother with the rest.
2. The bias of the article was so thick that I couldn't get past page one... and I chose not to bother with the rest.
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Official response to the NY Times article..
Dear Sirs:
It is with some sadness and disappointment that we at the Appleseed Project read the New York Times article this evening. When the NYT originally asked us to host their media team in order to better understand what we do, we welcomed them. When they wanted access to our students, programs, and instructors, we acquiesced without hesitation.
We did so because we have nothing to hide and no secrets in our program. There is no reason whatsoever to restrict or fear an open and honest press.
We spoke with happiness and excitement about the stellar growth of our program over the last four years and our mission to bring every American to a greater sense of responsibility for our nation and to live out that feeling through civic involvement.
Frankly, we opened ourselves up and said our piece in trust that it would be conveyed by the press to its readers.
Sadly, today's article is not about us. It is not about the Appleseed Project. It is about militias and about anecdotal gun owners who are not members of our program. The constant focus on the militia movement, the Tea Party, and Mr. Faire are at the center of this article and as a result this article is not about us, since those things are not, and never have been the Appleseed Project.
Frankly, there are among us those who feel that we have been poorly described and treated in this article, and I will return to that point in a moment.
The real tragedy here, however, is a complete failure of the press to see the real story: Why does Appleseed double every year? Why are people of all races, genders and ideological affiliations drawn to the Appleseed Project? What is going on here?
In its rush to cover the desired story, that is, scary militia groups, the NYT simply misses what is really important. Therein lies its disservice to both its readers and our program.
Now, with respect to specific themes in the article that we feel incorrectly describe the Appleseed Project, let us simply address each in turn:
Inaccuracy #1: Appleseed is Militia
Appleseed is not a militia or interested in militia training. Appleseed teaches only in individual marksmanship skills and the history of April 19th, 1775. Appleseed does not provide training in military tactics or unit operations. Rather, Appleseed uses marksmanship as a way for modern Americans to reconnect with the Founders through a shared, traditional American skill. No more. No less. Appleseed does not see our government as an enemy or force of arms as a solution. Rather, our enemies are laziness, ignorance and apathy. Appleseed sees education and lived history as the means to get people to the real solution: Personal involvement in civic processes to ensure a better future for our nation. Our ancestors fought so that we would not have to; all we have to do is get off our couches and get involved.
Where militias offer a dark haven for people with concerns about an unwelcome future, Appleseed offers reason for hope and sees bright, happy days ahead. That is the real reason we are not a militia nor associated with any such like-thinking group.
Inaccuracy #2: Appleseed is White (and thus Racist in some fashion by extension)
Appleseed is filled with students and instructors of all races, creeds, genders, and identities. We make no distinction for color, religion, sexual preference, political beliefs or any other discriminatory category. Our program is comprised at all levels of all Americans, and we explicitly urge all Americans to come. We have no patience for those who would take this great nation and divide it up by race, or who would single out someone else for ridicule or derision. There is no place in our cadre, among our students, or at our events for those who would put petty distinctions above unity and our joint past and future.
Inaccuracy #3: Appleseed is Anti-Government, Anti-Military, Anti-Law Enforcement
Appleseed is not anti-government, anti-military, or anti-law enforcement. Among our volunteers are people who work in law enforcement, the military, the government and nearly every civilian trade. We teach students who work in law enforcement, the military, the government, and any civilian occupation precisely because we are all Americans and inheritors of the same heritage and history. And together we must make our joint future.
Appleseed has zero tolerance for anti-government, anti-military, or anti-law enforcement attitudes, comments or advocates. To the contrary, we offer free spots on our shooting lines for active duty military personnel and have been called onto military bases to teach troops deploying for overseas duty in combat theaters. Elected officials at any level of government are invited to participate in Appleseed without charge. Finally, it is our goal to get each and every participant involved in the body politic, which means we are always clear that we hold our government, the government given us by the Founders, in the highest regard.
Soldiers, police officers, and government officials are not our enemies. They are our neighbors, friends, and protectors. At Appleseeds they are our honored guests.
Inaccuracy #4: Appleseed is Right Wing
Appleseed is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization with no interest in partisan politics. Appleseed volunteers and students come from all political parties, economic classes, and ideologies. We have no place for left wing, right wing, or any "wings" at all. Our program could not function that way, nor do we want it to.
Our only interest in politics is with the political details that led to and followed from the events of April 19th, 1775. From our retelling of those events we find that students are often motivated to move into civic involvement themselves. We do not frame the prospective involvement of our students and look forward to the day when we see two Appleseed graduates from opposite sides of the political spectrum running against each other in a national election.
Our goal is civic involvement across the ideological spectrum.
Inaccuracy #5: Appleseed has a Secret Plan
We wish we had a Secret Plan to get more people involved but we don't. There is no inner group, no special level, no wizard behind the curtain. There is only this: Our ancestors were left with two paths: submission or bloodshed. They chose the latter so that we could be left with a third path: citizenship and civic participation. To take this third path we must get off the couch, turn off the TV, and get involved in our communities. Those who would blather about a "choice" between submission and bloodshed in modern American do not understand what American was meant to be, or is.
Civic participation is not our secret plan. It is our openly stated mission.
In conclusion, it is my hope that the NYT and its readers continue their search for authentic information about the Appleseed Project so that they learn for themselves exactly what the Appleseed Project is, and what it seeks to create: a more active body politic. The current article is simply woefully lacking in that regard.
If anyone has any interest in continuing this conversation or attending an event, please be sure to contact us through our website Appleseed Project Home or via our email [email protected] and we will be happy to meet you.
We are open to all inquiries and harbor no ill-will toward the NYT or the author. We are certain that what lies behind this unfortunate description of our program is a deep-seated concern about firearms, marksmanship training and heritage programs. It is our stated mission to change that through the hard work of education and apparently we are right where we need to be.
Thank you for your time, and thanks to your readership as well,
The Appleseed Project
National Branch
Dear Sirs:
It is with some sadness and disappointment that we at the Appleseed Project read the New York Times article this evening. When the NYT originally asked us to host their media team in order to better understand what we do, we welcomed them. When they wanted access to our students, programs, and instructors, we acquiesced without hesitation.
We did so because we have nothing to hide and no secrets in our program. There is no reason whatsoever to restrict or fear an open and honest press.
We spoke with happiness and excitement about the stellar growth of our program over the last four years and our mission to bring every American to a greater sense of responsibility for our nation and to live out that feeling through civic involvement.
Frankly, we opened ourselves up and said our piece in trust that it would be conveyed by the press to its readers.
Sadly, today's article is not about us. It is not about the Appleseed Project. It is about militias and about anecdotal gun owners who are not members of our program. The constant focus on the militia movement, the Tea Party, and Mr. Faire are at the center of this article and as a result this article is not about us, since those things are not, and never have been the Appleseed Project.
Frankly, there are among us those who feel that we have been poorly described and treated in this article, and I will return to that point in a moment.
The real tragedy here, however, is a complete failure of the press to see the real story: Why does Appleseed double every year? Why are people of all races, genders and ideological affiliations drawn to the Appleseed Project? What is going on here?
In its rush to cover the desired story, that is, scary militia groups, the NYT simply misses what is really important. Therein lies its disservice to both its readers and our program.
Now, with respect to specific themes in the article that we feel incorrectly describe the Appleseed Project, let us simply address each in turn:
Inaccuracy #1: Appleseed is Militia
Appleseed is not a militia or interested in militia training. Appleseed teaches only in individual marksmanship skills and the history of April 19th, 1775. Appleseed does not provide training in military tactics or unit operations. Rather, Appleseed uses marksmanship as a way for modern Americans to reconnect with the Founders through a shared, traditional American skill. No more. No less. Appleseed does not see our government as an enemy or force of arms as a solution. Rather, our enemies are laziness, ignorance and apathy. Appleseed sees education and lived history as the means to get people to the real solution: Personal involvement in civic processes to ensure a better future for our nation. Our ancestors fought so that we would not have to; all we have to do is get off our couches and get involved.
Where militias offer a dark haven for people with concerns about an unwelcome future, Appleseed offers reason for hope and sees bright, happy days ahead. That is the real reason we are not a militia nor associated with any such like-thinking group.
Inaccuracy #2: Appleseed is White (and thus Racist in some fashion by extension)
Appleseed is filled with students and instructors of all races, creeds, genders, and identities. We make no distinction for color, religion, sexual preference, political beliefs or any other discriminatory category. Our program is comprised at all levels of all Americans, and we explicitly urge all Americans to come. We have no patience for those who would take this great nation and divide it up by race, or who would single out someone else for ridicule or derision. There is no place in our cadre, among our students, or at our events for those who would put petty distinctions above unity and our joint past and future.
Inaccuracy #3: Appleseed is Anti-Government, Anti-Military, Anti-Law Enforcement
Appleseed is not anti-government, anti-military, or anti-law enforcement. Among our volunteers are people who work in law enforcement, the military, the government and nearly every civilian trade. We teach students who work in law enforcement, the military, the government, and any civilian occupation precisely because we are all Americans and inheritors of the same heritage and history. And together we must make our joint future.
Appleseed has zero tolerance for anti-government, anti-military, or anti-law enforcement attitudes, comments or advocates. To the contrary, we offer free spots on our shooting lines for active duty military personnel and have been called onto military bases to teach troops deploying for overseas duty in combat theaters. Elected officials at any level of government are invited to participate in Appleseed without charge. Finally, it is our goal to get each and every participant involved in the body politic, which means we are always clear that we hold our government, the government given us by the Founders, in the highest regard.
Soldiers, police officers, and government officials are not our enemies. They are our neighbors, friends, and protectors. At Appleseeds they are our honored guests.
Inaccuracy #4: Appleseed is Right Wing
Appleseed is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization with no interest in partisan politics. Appleseed volunteers and students come from all political parties, economic classes, and ideologies. We have no place for left wing, right wing, or any "wings" at all. Our program could not function that way, nor do we want it to.
Our only interest in politics is with the political details that led to and followed from the events of April 19th, 1775. From our retelling of those events we find that students are often motivated to move into civic involvement themselves. We do not frame the prospective involvement of our students and look forward to the day when we see two Appleseed graduates from opposite sides of the political spectrum running against each other in a national election.
Our goal is civic involvement across the ideological spectrum.
Inaccuracy #5: Appleseed has a Secret Plan
We wish we had a Secret Plan to get more people involved but we don't. There is no inner group, no special level, no wizard behind the curtain. There is only this: Our ancestors were left with two paths: submission or bloodshed. They chose the latter so that we could be left with a third path: citizenship and civic participation. To take this third path we must get off the couch, turn off the TV, and get involved in our communities. Those who would blather about a "choice" between submission and bloodshed in modern American do not understand what American was meant to be, or is.
Civic participation is not our secret plan. It is our openly stated mission.
In conclusion, it is my hope that the NYT and its readers continue their search for authentic information about the Appleseed Project so that they learn for themselves exactly what the Appleseed Project is, and what it seeks to create: a more active body politic. The current article is simply woefully lacking in that regard.
If anyone has any interest in continuing this conversation or attending an event, please be sure to contact us through our website Appleseed Project Home or via our email [email protected] and we will be happy to meet you.
We are open to all inquiries and harbor no ill-will toward the NYT or the author. We are certain that what lies behind this unfortunate description of our program is a deep-seated concern about firearms, marksmanship training and heritage programs. It is our stated mission to change that through the hard work of education and apparently we are right where we need to be.
Thank you for your time, and thanks to your readership as well,
The Appleseed Project
National Branch
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Thank you for posting that. 
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I don't think it was really all *that* bad. It certainly wasn't pro-gun but I expected it to be a lot worse from reading the comments here. It's not as though the reporter said only white right wing people are allowed, he was just reporting who he saw attending. They did focus a lot on that Faire guy and people like him, but they also included arguments against such people made by the Appleseed project. Also I don't remember the article ever making an outright claim that it was a militia or anti government/military/police. All it said was that the one guy (Faire) was like that and that the vast majority of Appleseed project attendees have no such feelings. It was even said that one of the goals of Appleseed was to moderate those feelings.
I think maybe some people only read the first page and then dismissed the article completely since nytimes has a record of leaning towards the Democrat side of things.
I think maybe some people only read the first page and then dismissed the article completely since nytimes has a record of leaning towards the Democrat side of things.
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I think maybe some people only read the first page and then dismissed the article completely since nytimes has a record of leaning towards the Democrat side of things.
Yeah, because "You've taught him how to kill with a rifle out to 500 yards" is non-biased reporting.
If you can't read through the BS, then there's not much I can do for you. Teaching rifle marksmanship isn't about killing anyone or anything...does the NY Times criticize the Boy Scouts for teaching archery?
Shall I continue? I think I can do an NY Times-style piece on Red Ryder BB Guns as well.
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I don't think it was really all *that* bad. It certainly wasn't pro-gun but I expected it to be a lot worse from reading the comments here. It's not as though the reporter said only white right wing people are allowed, he was just reporting who he saw attending. They did focus a lot on that Faire guy and people like him, but they also included arguments against such people made by the Appleseed project. Also I don't remember the article ever making an outright claim that it was a militia or anti government/military/police. All it said was that the one guy (Faire) was like that and that the vast majority of Appleseed project attendees have no such feelings. It was even said that one of the goals of Appleseed was to moderate those feelings.
I think maybe some people only read the first page and then dismissed the article completely since nytimes has a record of leaning towards the Democrat side of things.
I read the article start to finish and I can say with confidence that page one was indicative of the whole theme of the article. It was a slam on Appleseed painting them as wacko militia, this was propaganda not objective journalism.
The author is a hack!
I didn't think the New York Times article was that bad. Obviously Appleseed should have checked out Mr Militia before hosting the event at his place multiple times. Wheeler, is Appleseed unwilling to even issue a mea culpa? Can I be sure they will do background checking next time they host an event? Frankly it puts me off attending.
A short, pithy letter to the editor would have been more effective than what was posted above (which is too long to print and is better for the Appleseed website). If you want to debate matters of fact then you should send a letter to the NYT ombudsman. But the letter is overdone because some of the inaccuracies you respond to like #2 Racism simply don't exist in the article.
JustJim, you claim "I try to find sources that speak the thruth" but most of what I see is your record of posting misinformation from chain emails and other sources which are quickly debunked (e.g. http://www.northwestfirearms.com/fo...ussion/32586-gun-related-e-mail-recieved.html). Also, please post links to these New York Times articles that are known to be lies, and the credible sites that prove your claim. No, World Net Daily is not a credible site.
A short, pithy letter to the editor would have been more effective than what was posted above (which is too long to print and is better for the Appleseed website). If you want to debate matters of fact then you should send a letter to the NYT ombudsman. But the letter is overdone because some of the inaccuracies you respond to like #2 Racism simply don't exist in the article.
JustJim, you claim "I try to find sources that speak the thruth" but most of what I see is your record of posting misinformation from chain emails and other sources which are quickly debunked (e.g. http://www.northwestfirearms.com/fo...ussion/32586-gun-related-e-mail-recieved.html). Also, please post links to these New York Times articles that are known to be lies, and the credible sites that prove your claim. No, World Net Daily is not a credible site.
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8Ball... I am not sure what more we could have done to check out the venue.. I am sure that when we used the range it was just Appleseed and only Appleseed.
You may, in the course of your daily life, come into contact with people or persons that have a radically different world view than your own. That is a fact of life.
You may even spend time on a range with unsavory elements of our society. What is important is that we each hold onto our own world view, or in the case of the Appleseed Project, stay true to the mission.
I did not generate the official rebuttal, someone at the National level did.
However, if race wasn't an issue, why did the reporter even mention it? I am sure that if the reporter attended more Appleseeds he would encounter shooters from all walks of life..Appleseed is like that.
There is nothing that I can do to ensure that any range that hosts an Appleseed is racially diverse and void of people that have differing opinions (the shooting community is kinda like that) but I will guarantee that if you attend an Appleseed event you will not be offended by any other shooters or the staff. We keep strictly to teaching the history of one day in America and teaching folks from all walks of life how to shoot rifles.
W44
You may, in the course of your daily life, come into contact with people or persons that have a radically different world view than your own. That is a fact of life.
You may even spend time on a range with unsavory elements of our society. What is important is that we each hold onto our own world view, or in the case of the Appleseed Project, stay true to the mission.
I did not generate the official rebuttal, someone at the National level did.
However, if race wasn't an issue, why did the reporter even mention it? I am sure that if the reporter attended more Appleseeds he would encounter shooters from all walks of life..Appleseed is like that.
There is nothing that I can do to ensure that any range that hosts an Appleseed is racially diverse and void of people that have differing opinions (the shooting community is kinda like that) but I will guarantee that if you attend an Appleseed event you will not be offended by any other shooters or the staff. We keep strictly to teaching the history of one day in America and teaching folks from all walks of life how to shoot rifles.
W44
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