All Or Nothing Paradoxes.

[RVTECH]

I guess that means different lives have different values.

Or it's a matter of perception.

Some people keep game animals (such as deer) as pets and would never kill one for food.

Then there are cultures that kill cats and dogs for food.

 

[TTSX]

I don't buy guns with aluminum barrels

 

[JRuby]

I don't buy guns with aluminum receiver. Did once. A FAL with a williams receiver. Overall a bad idea for a receiver.

 

[CamoDeafie]

I don't buy guns with aluminum receiver. Did once. A FAL with a williams receiver. Overall a bad idea for a receiver.

Aluminum framed pistols? .22lr semis with aluminum slides?

I'd prefer a forged or billet receiver set than a stamped steel cover around polymer frame the again, zamak blowbacks

 

[Koda]

I never buy specifically marketed non-gmo and or organic food.
It has been shown to have zero nutritional difference than conventional, mainstream, non-wankery foods.

Arent the chemical pesticides and herbicides much higher in non organics?

 

[lucusloc]

Arent the chemical pesticides and herbicides much higher in non organics?

No, the non-organics use targeted pesticides that they can use in smaller quantities and have less impact on non-target species. Organic farms use more broad-spectrum 'ciedes that are "natural" and considerably more toxic to other species like mammals (us, for example). Remember, just because it comes from nature does not mean it will not be quite effective at killing you dead. Nature has come up with some of the nastiest chemicals known to man, and their use in industrial agriculture is far worse for everyone than something engineered to do a specific job with as minimal impact as possible.

But, you know, "organic" and all.

 

[Koda]

I never understood the "vegan" as a moral issue argument. you literally cannot live without harming other living organisms. Past that is is just a matter of where you draw the line. There is no paradox there, you are simply making a judgement call on what level of suffering you are willing to inflict on what complexity of being in order to continue your survival at some standard of living.

Vegan and vegetarianism is entirely unfounded and based on emotion. I apologize for anyone reading that might be one, have zero issues with others practicing the diet but the justifications are not reality. Plus if the world magically stopped all animal husbandry the demand for all vegetarian food would be a massive environmental impact including the animal ecosystem they want to protect.

And most of those judgements (at least by vegans) employ a rather massive amount of anthropomorphism. They assume "suffering" is all experienced in the same way as a human for all "creatures" (which basically just amount to animals, no matter how simple, and exclude everything else, not matter how complex). But this is not backed up by anything even remotely close to science. Most animals, as far as we have been able to measure, do not experience anything like human suffering.

I'm pretty sure dogs fall into the "most animals" category and while I'm no scientist I'm pretty thoroughly convinced they experience suffering and emotions on a human level. You can argue how much but to me its close enough. More in support of your position I think most mammals that are capable of feeling emotions experience levels of suffering and loss, I might agree to a lesser extent but not certain that matters much.

 

[Koda]

No, the non-organics use targeted pesticides that they can use in smaller quantities and have less impact on non-target species. Organic farms use more broad-spectrum 'ciedes that are "natural" and considerably more toxic to other species like mammals (us, for example). Remember, just because it comes from nature does not mean it will not be quite effective at killing you dead. Nature has come up with some of the nastiest chemicals known to man, and their use in industrial agriculture is far worse for everyone than something engineered to do a specific job with as minimal impact as possible.

But, you know, "organic" and all.

I'm open to learn more if you know of a reliable source but I remain skeptical. I agree that organics isn't as perfect as their industry claims but I don't see how attempts to produce foods more naturally does not produce more natural biavailable nutrients and less toxic chemicals.

 

[crstrode]

In general, I have found that high-level vegans have low-level IQs.

 

[RVTECH]

In general, I have found that high-level vegans have low-level IQs.

They also look pale, hollow eyed, almost zombie - like.

 

[lucusloc]

Vegan and vegetarianism is entirely unfounded and based on emotion. I apologize for anyone reading that might be one, have zero issues with others practicing the diet but the justifications are not reality. Plus if the world magically stopped all animal husbandry the demand for all vegetarian food would be a massive environmental impact including the animal ecosystem they want to protect.

I'm pretty sure dogs fall into the "most animals" category and while I'm no scientist I'm pretty thoroughly convinced they experience suffering and emotions on a human level. You can argue how much but to me its close enough. More in support of your position I think most mammals that are capable of feeling emotions experience levels of suffering and loss, I might agree to a lesser extent but not certain that matters much.

Oh there are definitely animals that are pretty close to humans in mental capability, at least for rudimentary things like emotion, memory and suffering. But that pool is probably quite a bit less than we like to think. Dog are definitely in that category, but the koala (as discussed above) really isn't. And when you get out of mammals finding animals that are comparable to us gets significantly harder. For most of nature the capability to suffer just is not any kind of survival advantage.

Of course we are just talking about neurological capability here, which is just what we instinctively understand. Another interesting area of study I have been following is plant based cognition. This is all based on chemical signaling and things like "hormonal memory". We now know that plants can have quite elaborate "conversations" with each other about quite specific topics (down to the species of herbivore eating them), can engage in nutrition exchange through specific requests with other individuals, can remember specific types of trauma (tomato's seems to be especially good at this, with hormones that remember not only what type of damage but how long ago and how long it took to heal) and can plan for the future (with tomatos again stockpiling resources to recover from a specific type of damage they suspect in the future, like leaf or stock predation). Hell, plants can even cross species communicate, like calling in predator wasps when they are suffering a caterpillar infestation or hijacking moth sexy-time hormones to promote pollination. Some species of plants actually have quite advanced stimulus processing, memory and planning capabilities, and all that without a neuron in sight.

And for those wondering, yes it does appear that your tomato plants remember you harvesting them, and they do not seem to appreciate it. (That rather pleasant herbal-tomato smell you get? Yeah, for lack of a better analogy that is the plant screaming. And all the other tomatos in the garden hear it and prepare themselves for similar trauma.)

 

[Koda]

That is the paradox I love dogs and cats and consider them family. In October and I am out hunting I would put a round into a nice buck. I guess that means different lives have different values.

Unlike most apex predators dogs were easy to domesticate and have proven a high usefulness to humans. So not unlike vegetarians, even the most carnivorous human anthropomorphizes them into a being that we look down at the idea of eating them.

 

[arakboss]

All this talk about eating plants and animals made me abandon my grocery store abstinence 6 days early. Safeway was tempting me anyways with $1.49 a lb boneless skinless chicken chest and a 3lb pack of bacon for $9.17. Since I was there, I figured I might as well throw in four two lb bricks of cows milk flavored like cheddar at $5.37ea. Then the pizza isle called with totino's pizzas 4 for $5. Two Digiorno's for $3.50ea. After that I added a loaf of sourdough bread, 20ct pack of tortillas, bananas, four boxes of cereal, 5lb bag of potatoes, two 32oz jugs of non dairy creamer and four bags of Dorito's. The total was $76.75. Since I added a $5 off a $30 purchase and $5 off a $50 purchase coupons, the grand total was $66.75. Not bad for being a little rusty.

 

[Koda]

Oh there are definitely animals that are pretty close to humans in mental capability, at least for rudimentary things like emotion, memory and suffering. But that pool is probably quite a bit less than we like to think. Dog are definitely in that category, but the koala (as discussed above) really isn't. And when you get out of mammals finding animals that are comparable to us gets significantly harder. For most of nature the capability to suffer just is not any kind of survival advantage.

We haven't tested every animal to conclude any linear scale of measurable suffering, and it doesn't matter. A koala, a squirrel, a deer, a cow... doesn't matter, they express emotions wither we can see them or not. The level of emotion expressed or not doesn't matter. They all have the capability to suffer and experience it. Its why ungulates create herds for protection, its why the parents fight back against predators attacking their fawns, at risk to their own lives, otherwise why not just walk away, Ive watched deer refuse to leave their fallen friend slain by a hunter to the point they had to aggressively shoo them away... that doesn't happen in nature because animals are less capable of suffering, that happens because they are emotionally attached no different than humans.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I don't buy guns with aluminum receiver. Did once. A FAL with a williams receiver. Overall a bad idea for a receiver.

No AR for you!

 

[nammac]

Yup. I only buy products that taste good!

Todays" taboo food/ingredient is tomorrows "super food" and life is simply too short. Even if any of the hooey is real... I rather die 10 years earlier and enjoy what I enjoy every day of my life than spend every day of my life trying to decipher and fret over whatever current food fad others try to impose... and trying to delude myself into believing, "I like it".

Being sensible with a well balanced diet and eating in moderation is good enough for me.

This is the key, well balanced and inclusive diet, no extremes. We eat red meat, chicken and fish for dinner once each week. Other nights we go meatless, lentils and rice or beans and rice or some other Peruvian dish that doesn't require meat.

Keeps us healthy without going crazy in any one direction. No way I'm willing to give up a nice char grilled Filet Mignon with buttered baked tater and grilled veggies…. Some nice toasted buttered French Betard on the side, yum!!!

 

[arakboss]

No AR for you!

ARs are evil anyways, nobody needs an aluminum receiver.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Arent the chemical pesticides and herbicides much higher in non organics?

No. They are engineered to be resistant to everything but my teeth.

 

[Koda]

Anybody here share this strict view on other products that you use or consume?

Examples:

You buy "Made In The USA" only products and will never buy a foreign made product.

Its certainly a paradox as its virtually impossible to live inside an ideological filter bubble.

Only eating fish still kills a living being.

Only buying made in the USA means you probably will never enjoy food in the middle of winter, a rainjacket to keep warm, most clothing for that matter, and give up all your electronic devices right now, every single one of them including your US made car. See how long you last.


I recently ran across this meme that kinda fits this paradox...

 

[lucusloc]

Its certainly a paradox as its virtually impossible to live inside an ideological filter bubble.

Only eating fish still kills a living being.

Only buying made in the USA means you probably will never enjoy food in the middle of winter, a rainjacket to keep warm, most clothing for that matter, and give up all your electronic devices right now, every single one of them including your US made car. See how long you last.


I recently ran across this meme that kinda fits this paradox...
View attachment 1851284

Well, practical standards too. Cockroaches can transmit diseases, butterfly really don't. Is it any wonder why we would develop a deeply ingrained cultural, even instinctual preference for one over the other? A huge amount of our "aesthetic standards" for nature are deeply rooted in how bad those natural things are to us (or at least were from ages past). Trying to boil it down to mere "beauty preferences" ignores how those standards for beauty got established in the first place, and can overlook real and ingrained reasons for those preferences. Even if they seem arbitrary today there is probably a long forgotten logical reason for it to have been ingrained in our psyche if we care to look for it.