All Or Nothing Paradoxes.

[arakboss]

This article from a likely hard-core vegan came up in my Google search feed yesterday. Essentially the author is shaming pescatarians for eating fish and not going all in with vegan or vegetarian diet.

Eat Fish But Not Meat? You're Probably Suffering From The Pescatarian's Paradox

There's some pretty fishy logic going on here.

www.iflscience.com

Anybody here share this strict view on other products that you use or consume?

Examples:

You buy "Made In The USA" only products and will never buy a foreign made product.

Or

You only buy organic labeled foods and will never buy anything that isn't organic labeled.

Read More

 

[arakboss]

I am flexible when it comes to buying products. On rare occasions I will even by something other than a Hi-Point.

I would feel like OCD was occurring if I was so inflexible as to always buy some category or type of product to a 100% exclusion of other products. Even though I am frugal (cheap) with 99% of my purchases, every once in a while I splurge

The Colt Competition 1911 with aftermarket drop in trigger, I took home this month, was one of those rare splurges.

 

[lucusloc]

This article from a likely hard-core vegan came up in my Google search feed yesterday. Essentially the author is shaming pescatarians for eating fish and not going all in with vegan or vegetarian diet.

Eat Fish But Not Meat? You're Probably Suffering From The Pescatarian's Paradox

There's some pretty fishy logic going on here.

www.iflscience.com

Anybody here share this strict view on other products that you use or consume?

Examples:

You buy "Made In The USA" only products and will never buy a foreign made product.

Or

You only buy organic labeled foods and will never buy anything that isn't organic labeled.

I never understood the "vegan" as a moral issue argument. you literally cannot live without harming other living organisms. Past that is is just a matter of where you draw the line. There is no paradox there, you are simply making a judgement call on what level of suffering you are willing to inflict on what complexity of being in order to continue your survival at some standard of living. And most of those judgements (at least by vegans) employ a rather massive amount of anthropomorphism. They assume "suffering" is all experienced in the same way as a human for all "creatures" (which basically just amount to animals, no matter how simple, and exclude everything else, not matter how complex). But this is not backed up by anything even remotely close to science. Most animals, as far as we have been able to measure, do not experience anything like human suffering.

Worms, insects and even some vertebrates do not have the receptors to feel most of the sensations humans would describe as "pain" and do not posses the low-level to high-level interconnects in their brain to "cognate" on "pain" as an "experiential stimulus". Hell, most of them do not even have brains at all, at least in the way we understand them as humans. Their nervous systems simply detect damage and attempt to route around it, then stop processing the stimulus as soon as it becomes irrelevant. For example insects can lose entire limbs and it barely registers as a blip in the mass of neurons we call a "brain" (but is really just a slightly more concentrated part of their distributed neural system, which mostly acts as independent nodes). They do not even attempt to change their gait in response as their pre-programmed locomotion routine is robust enough to continue working (for the most part) even with missing appendages.

It is not until you get to the higher level mammals (and a few birds) that you get animals capable of truly experiencing "pain" in a way similar to what we have; the event, the aftermath, the healing and the memory. Everything below that -dumb mammals, reptiles, amphibians and fish- stop well before that chain of events finishes, usually because they lack the neural structures to continue processing such stimulus as an ongoing event. They get hurt, respond to the initial damage, then "cool off" on the stimulus and stop processing it unless the wound gets stimulated again. The only "suffering" going on is our own empathy towards the situation. That fish with a gash down its side? Yeah, it is preoccupied with trying to eat and avoid predators while the wound heals. It's little pinhead of a brain has stop processing that damage because it is not immediately relevant to that job. It may flinch if it rubs the wound against something, because that rubbing will impede healing, but past that there is not enough free cycles in that brain to dwell on pain as an ongoing sensation, so it gets dropped by the nervous system as irrelevant information.

And we know all this because some very unethical people (by vegan standards) jammed electrodes into fish brains (and lot of other animals too) and then "stimulated them" with damage to see how it got processed. It does not exactly lend credence to the "animal suffering" hypothesis of veganism.

And don't even get me started on their "sustainability" arguments, 'cause those are a crock of bubblegum too.

So yeah, I do not get it as anything other than an emotional reaction to an over-active empathy response. Toughen up buttercup, the world is a terrible place and everything dies, sometimes for stupid reasons. Best to focus on making your own species better, because we actually do have all those higher level processing centers for all those weird and wonderful abstract concepts that can make our lives extremely wonderful or extremely miserable, depending on the stimulus we get. Wasting all that effort on a species that literally lacks the brainpower to comprehend the "mercy" you are showing it seems like a big 'ol pile of wasted effort to me.

 

[Yarome]

Anybody here share this strict view on other products that you use or consume?

Yup. I only buy products that taste good!

Todays" taboo food/ingredient is tomorrows "super food" and life is simply too short. Even if any of the hooey is real... I rather die 10 years earlier and enjoy what I enjoy every day of my life than spend every day of my life trying to decipher and fret over whatever current food fad others try to impose... and trying to delude myself into believing, "I like it".

Being sensible with a well balanced diet and eating in moderation is good enough for me.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

All or nothing....If you don't do things my way , you are wrong...name calling....shamming...etc...
Really now....interesting that someone who claims to be doing the "right " thing , also does the above.

In any event...

While I don't think a strict Vegan diet is healthy...since humans are not "designed" / biologically set up for being herbivores....
If someone wants to adhere to such a diet....then good for them.
What is good for them...may well be just that , good for them.
That however don't mean that everyone else needs to do the same.
Or get called names or judged for not doing as they do.

At the end of the day @Yarome said well with :

Being sensible with a well balanced diet and eating in moderation is good enough for me.

This makes much more sense to me , than having a strict one sided , so to speak , diet.


As far as for other buying habits and the like...
I tend to buy and use what I like and use well...I also prefer quality over quantity.
I prefer items made in the USA or countries other than China...however that is difficult to do at times.
Some things like pet chow...I will make a "stand" and not buy from those made in China or cheaply made with lots of filler etc...

Andy

 

[Certaindeaf]

I never buy specifically marketed non-gmo and or organic food.
It has been shown to have zero nutritional difference than conventional, mainstream, non-wankery foods.

 

[Yarome]

I never buy specifically marketed non-gmo and or organic food.
It has been shown to have zero nutritional difference than conventional, mainstream, non-wankery foods.

What's kinda funny is there are a LOT of foods on the shelves that are marketed "GMO free" so they can upcharge and cash in on the "sticker value" trend, but if you look into it, the products they are selling don't even contain ingredients with a GMO alternative available. Just the other day I saw a GMO free label on a salt can.

I mean... since when does salt even have genes that make it even possible to genetically modify them?? That doesn't stop the suppliers from paying those their-party regulatory organizations to put a "GMO free" sticker on their products though. Or rather... charging their customers to pay for those nonsense stickers.

I think that falls under my previously mentioned "be sensible" category. Having at least a basic understanding of where your food comes from, how it's grown/processed and under what types of regulation.

 

[arakboss]

I think Vegans are in a class of their own when it comes to not deviating from the lifestyle.

Even hardcore Carnivores are likely to wear plant based clothing, buy furniture made with plant based materials, etc. Trying to get a hardcore vegan to buy a leather sofa or leather underwear probably ain't going to happen.

I imagine even the most hardcore Chevy fan would take another brand of car if it was given to him. Do you think a Vegan would take a free half cow, not likely.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Vegans should be grateful to those who eat meat....
We eat the things that eat their food.....

Kidding...sorta.

What I dislike is when someone gets all self-righteous over their personal choice...
Be it food related....firearm related ...etc....

Make the correct choice for you....Just don't make that choice for others...
Or cast disparaging remarks and judgments over others who choose differently than you.
Andy

 

[arakboss]

By the way, what is the lifestyle called that is the complete opposite of the Vegan lifestyle? Maybe it hasn't been recognized yet?

 

[JRuby]

I never understood the "vegan" as a moral issue argument. you literally cannot live without harming other living organisms. Past that is is just a matter of where you draw the line. There is no paradox there, you are simply making a judgement call on what level of suffering you are willing to inflict on what complexity of being in order to continue your survival at some standard of living. And most of those judgements (at least by vegans) employ a rather massive amount of anthropomorphism. They assume "suffering" is all experienced in the same way as a human for all "creatures" (which basically just amount to animals, no matter how simple, and exclude everything else, not matter how complex). But this is not backed up by anything even remotely close to science. Most animals, as far as we have been able to measure, do not experience anything like human suffering.

Worms, insects and even some vertebrates do not have the receptors to feel most of the sensations humans would describe as "pain" and do not posses the low-level to high-level interconnects in their brain to "cognate" on "pain" as an "experiential stimulus". Hell, most of them do not even have brains at all, at least in the way we understand them as humans. Their nervous systems simply detect damage and attempt to route around it, then stop processing the stimulus as soon as it becomes irrelevant. For example insects can lose entire limbs and it barely registers as a blip in the mass of neurons we call a "brain" (but is really just a slightly more concentrated part of their distributed neural system, which mostly acts as independent nodes). They do not even attempt to change their gait in response as their pre-programmed locomotion routine is robust enough to continue working (for the most part) even with missing appendages.

It is not until you get to the higher level mammals (and a few birds) that you get animals capable of truly experiencing "pain" in a way similar to what we have; the event, the aftermath, the healing and the memory. Everything below that -dumb mammals, reptiles, amphibians and fish- stop well before that chain of events finishes, usually because they lack the neural structures to continue processing such stimulus as an ongoing event. They get hurt, respond to the initial damage, then "cool off" on the stimulus and stop processing it unless the wound gets stimulated again. The only "suffering" going on is our own empathy towards the situation. That fish with a gash down its side? Yeah, it is preoccupied with trying to eat and avoid predators while the wound heals. It's little pinhead of a brain has stop processing that damage because it is not immediately relevant to that job. It may flinch if it rubs the wound against something, because that rubbing will impede healing, but past that there is not enough free cycles in that brain to dwell on pain as an ongoing sensation, so it gets dropped by the nervous system as irrelevant information.

And we know all this because some very unethical people (by vegan standards) jammed electrodes into fish brains (and lot of other animals too) and then "stimulated them" with damage to see how it got processed. It does not exactly lend credence to the "animal suffering" hypothesis of veganism.

And don't even get me started on their "sustainability" arguments, 'cause those are a crock of bubblegum too.

So yeah, I do not get it as anything other than an emotional reaction to an over-active empathy response. Toughen up buttercup, the world is a terrible place and everything dies, sometimes for stupid reasons. Best to focus on making your own species better, because we actually do have all those higher level processing centers for all those weird and wonderful abstract concepts that can make our lives extremely wonderful or extremely miserable, depending on the stimulus we get. Wasting all that effort on a species that literally lacks the brainpower to comprehend the "mercy" you are showing it seems like a big 'ol pile of wasted effort to me.

Just curious- what low level mammals don't feel pain? I can think of none that fit tis level? At one time dogs were considered dumb. Then we got smarter and recognized that they have most of the emotions we do.

 

[AshWilliams]

As a side note, even the most militant of vegans in the West have nothing on Jainism. Adherents wear masks so as to not accidentally inhale insects or carefully sweep frequently trodden paths so as to remove any insects from being trampled under foot.

Take that vegans. Your self-righteousness just got dunked on.

 

[Stomper]

Speaking of "all or nothing" paradoxes…. it's like saying, "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded"!

 

[arakboss]

Just curious- what low level mammals don't feel pain? I can think of none that fit tis level? At one time dogs were considered dumb. Then we got smarter and recognized that they have most of the emotions we do.

Sage rats.

 

[DB is Here]

While in Walla Walla about 7-8 years ago met a guy that now has a winery used to have land full of blackberry bushes, something most of us consider a nuisance.

The previous owner of the land was picking the blackberries, marking them as organic and the folks in Seattle paid 2-3 times more when they were marked organic.

SO, I don't buy the "Organic" line and I'm not willing to pay one red cent more for the quote unquote organic products foisted upon us.

 

[arakboss]

By the way, what is the lifestyle called that is the complete opposite of the Vegan lifestyle? Maybe it hasn't been recognized yet?

Edit: Found it (sort of).

What is Carnism? | Beyond Carnism

What is Carnism? Carnism is the invisible belief system, or ideology, that conditions people to eat certain animals. Find out more at Beyond Carnism today.

carnism.org

Maybe if I practice Carnism for a few weeks, I can get the freezer cleared of the old meat products. By the way does anybody know where I can get some animal based tp

 

[lucusloc]

I never buy specifically marketed non-gmo and or organic food.
It has been shown to have zero nutritional difference than conventional, mainstream, non-wankery foods.

I do this too. The markup is insane for a product whose only real difference is the label.

 

[Bobbygun]

The Colt Competition 1911 with aftermarket drop in trigger, I took home this month, was one of those rare splurges.

Pics or it didn't happen!

Did it have those blue Colt grips? Man, when those first came out, I was sure I had to have one. Then, before I could locate one, they came out with a stainless version, and I like stainless pistols best. But, I didn't like the looks with the blue grips as well as the blued version. Analysis paralysis took over, and I ended up with neither, then started coveting something else.

As to the original premise of the thread, I'm a hardcore vegetable hater. The only vegetable I can stand to eat is barley and hops. Oh, and chocolate.

 

[lucusloc]

Just curious- what low level mammals don't feel pain? I can think of none that fit tis level? At one time dogs were considered dumb. Then we got smarter and recognized that they have most of the emotions we do.

It's not that they don't feel pain, it's that they don't experience pain as a long term trauma on their psyche. They get the initial burst, they will continue the experience if the wound gets stimulated, but by and large ongoing pain is automatically ignored by their sensory processing filter in the brain stem. And their memory retention of the experience is almost nonexistent. Koalas are probably the most extreme example for mammals, depending on the type of trauma they barely register or respond to the initial event, and seem to have no memory of anything past a few hours, if that. Their brains are quite literally completely smooth and about the size of a small walnut, which means their processing capacity for anything past basic instinctual stimulus recognition is, well, "quite limited" is an understatement. They cannot even recognize their own food in a different context, like leaves on a plate, let alone be taught to utilize a different food source like pellets. Utilizing that extremely limited processing capability for things like "trauma" and "psychological distress" is right out.

 

[Nosferatu]

Vegan blood is too watery and tastes like despair.