.45ACP not enough?

[wp4]

I get what you are both saying... I just don't like the way po18guy prefaced his arguments:



So to answer his question and comments: No, I am not assuming anything... I'm just following the story in the way that it happened. Why it happened, I do not care. It did, and it happened the way it did.

Being older or wiser or better trained has nothing to do with anything and is IMO a snide, or snarky, or passive/aggressive comment... po18guy posed a scenario where he recommended running down a man exiting a car and coming at an officer while firing a weapon at the officer. I questioned, and still do, a tactic that has an officer or anyone else driving forward into increasingly closer gunfire. I question this as a layman... if there is a LEO trained answer, give it to me instead of an entire page of second guessing what the officer actually did do. That can be talked about in a LEO conference and maybe has been or should be. I don't care. All I care about is the prospect of driving forward into gunfire. I can't think of a good alternative to what the officer did:

Perp stops his vehicle. Officer stops his at whatever distance behind the perp. Perp exits vehicle and immediately begins firing a handgun at the officer. The officer is taking fire. (This is the way the story was related). Actions the officer could take:
1. While under fire, put the car in reverse and drive backwards, while taking fire, maybe trying to duck, losing sight of the shooter possibly rushing towards the car. Driving backwards until out of range. Perp gets back in his car and the chase is on again, maybe backup will come, maybe not. (Note: this tactic always works in the movies)
2. While under fire, sit and wait for backup to arrive.
3. While under fire, exit the vehicle on the drivers side, using the door as cover. Maybe works, maybe not.
4. While under fire, draw weapon and engage the shooter, a gunfight. Maybe works, maybe not.
5. Other alternative action.

So yeah, I'm a layman...school me on what to do when a guy jumps out of a vehicle and starts shooting.

As a fellow laymen, I will leave the schooling up to the experts.

But I would guess (untested theory) the idea is to be ready as soon as the BG stops the vehicle of his own volition and starts to get out - to GUN IT if a weapon is seen.

I would guess almost anyone would be so scared of the 4k pound missile accelerating at them they would maybe get off 1 half azzed shot before either diving back in the car or getting plastered against the door and squished.

If they dove the other direction they could probably still be easily squished, unless they had impeccable timing. In which case I guess the best course of action would be to KEEP ACCELERATING and GTFO away?

 

[bbbass]

As a fellow laymen, I will leave the schooling up to the experts.

But I would guess (untested theory) the idea is to be ready as soon as the BG stops the vehicle of his own volition and starts to get out - to GUN IT if a weapon is seen.

I would guess almost anyone would be so scared of the 4k pound missile acceleating at them they would maybe get off 1 half azzed shot before either diving back in the car or getting plastered against the door and squished.

If they dove the other direction they could probably still be easily squished, unless they had impeccable timing. In which case I guess the best course of action would be to KEEP ACCELERATING and GTFO away?

Yes if we are making a general recommendation, I can see that. If the weapon is immediately visable. If the bg doesn't come out firing. I guess the idea would be not to be shocked and just sit there, be ready.

All I am saying is that's not the way it happened.

 

[surevaliance]

If there is a LEO trained answer, give it to me instead of an entire page of second guessing what the officer actually did do.

This!

 

[po18guy]

Apologies to anyone who is offended. No such offense was intended. I ask only that what I post be simply considered in its entirety and on its own merits. I must consider others here to be better at this than I am - my clumsy attempt at humility. I spent 31 years behind the badge, received a lot of training, did some myself and we are also trained to examine these tactical incidents so as to find out what went right and what went wrong.

To separate good judgment from bad. From Newhall to Norco, Miami to North Hollywood, we went through these shootouts and discussed options available to the responders before and during. The point is to save officers' lives, not to score points or bump chests. Saving our lives is best done by using each and every tool at our disposal - beginning with the brain. NOT intentionally being snarky - although I am certainly capable of that. I was phrasing my reply as a question rather than an accusation.

I prefer to draw back and look at the big picture. The sergeant in this scenario was not simply blindsided with a shootout. He had time to consider what he was about to do. There is some thinking which "appears" to assume that a gunfight was absolutely unavoidable. Then the discussion veers off into calibers and weapons instead of tactics.

We can only learn from reviewing such incidents. As to calibers, another sergeant (Alvin C. York) proved the stopping power of .45 ball against those bent on killing him.

 

[wp4]

This!

What in the ever loving F do those 2 vidjeos have to do with bbbass' question?

Are you an LEO?

 

[surevaliance]

What in the ever loving F do those 2 vidjeos have to do with bbbass' question?

Are you an LEO?

These two videos illustrate low level of professionalism among cops.
I am former (Russian) Patrol then Narcotics with 8 years of experience during 90's, including four trips to Chechnya - before I immigrated to the USA, - when Russian streets were no different from Los Cabos,

 

[bbbass]

I am almost hesitant to post anything at all online, as no matter how wise or foolish, it will be immediately challenged, opposed, critiqued, rather than considered in its entirety. The point is to save officers' lives, not to score points or bump chests. Saving our lives is best done by using each and every tool at our disposal - beginning with the brain. NOT being snarky - although I am certainly capable of that. I was phrasing my reply as a question rather than an accusation. The direction of the thread "seems" to assume that a gunfight was absolutely unavoidable. Then it veers off into calibers and weapons instead of tactics.

We can only learn from these reviews. Another sergeant (Alvin C. York) proved the stopping power of .45 ball against those bent on killing him.

Yes, I questioned your recommendation about driving into gunfire. I'm not sorry I did.

That aside, if the point is to save officers lives, I'm not certain of how many LEOs there are here to receive your message. I am certain that there are a lot of laymen here.

The thread was intended to entertain thoughts on whether to go bigger or more rounds. Or to think about how one shot or a few may not end the fight. The thread did not "veer off into calibers and weapons". Nay, it was started as yet another discussion on such. It did veer off into a discussion on LEO tactics, which IMO would be more appropriate in a separate thread on, well, LEO tactics. Please note the title of the thread is ".45ACP not enough?" I did that intentionally.

Look, you seem to be an incredibly intelligent guy, capable of extensive analysis. I think you ideas would be valuable within an appropriate context. If you wish to engage in thread drift, I am the last one to complain about that. But let's be clear about the intention of the thread originally, who we are addressing with recommendations, and not be too defensive when people challenge. You engaged me because I challenged your idea. You did it in a snarky way. It is what it is.

I'm excessively tired from socializing yesterday. This thread is turning into a bummer. Carry on...

 

[po18guy]

Perp stops his vehicle. Officer stops his at whatever distance behind the perp. Perp exits vehicle and immediately begins firing a handgun at the officer. The officer is taking fire. (This is the way the story was related). Actions the officer could take:
1. While under fire, put the car in reverse and drive backwards, while taking fire, maybe trying to duck, losing sight of the shooter possibly rushing towards the car. Driving backwards until out of range. Perp gets back in his car and the chase is on again, maybe backup will come, maybe not. (Note: this tactic always works in the movies)
2. While under fire, sit and wait for backup to arrive.
3. While under fire, exit the vehicle on the drivers side, using the door as cover. Maybe works, maybe not.
4. While under fire, draw weapon and engage the shooter, a gunfight. Maybe works, maybe not.
5. Other alternative action.

So yeah, I'm a layman...school me on what to do when a guy jumps out of a vehicle and starts shooting.

Very sorry that you took my reply that way, as it was not intended. It is a question not an accusation. I have had my balls busted many times for making accusations, so now I ask questions. This is intended to be a discussion, a dialog, a learning experience. My point is to examine what actually happened and offer options to the LEO on the street right now so that he or she may survive a similar situation.

Some cred: Was an LEO for 31 years in King County, WA. A firearms instructor and EVOC instructor. Have a couple of Caliber Press survival seminars under my belt and tactical/risk management seminars by retired CHP Captain Gordon Graham. What I was offering was an LEO trained opinion and options - options that may not be obvious to some LEOs.

Very sorry for the clumsy way in which I did it.

 

[bbbass]

These two videos illustrate low level of professionalism among cops.
I am former (Russian) Patrol then Narcotics with 8 years of experience during 90's, including four trips to Chechnya - before I immigrated to the USA, - when Russian streets were no different from Los Cabos,

Please stay on topic! The discussion is whether .45ACP is the be all of stopping power or if it would be better to carry more rounds of a smaller caliber. The thread was pulled off to a discussion of LEO tactics. Your thoughts would be welcome on either, but please let's not devolve into a cop bashing. I'll request this thread be closed rather than have that.

 

[wp4]

I'm excessively tired from socializing yesterday. This thread is turning into a bummer. Carry on...

I'm sorry, but that's the best thing I've read on here in a while!

ME TOO!

 

[po18guy]

Yes, I questioned your recommendation about driving into gunfire. I'm not sorry I did

I guess I was not clear. The point was to anticipate the gunfire, expect the gunfire and act accordingly. To watch each and every movement of the perp, paying particular attention to his physical movements and hands. When the perp gets out without being told to do so, what does that signify? He's got a plan. Gun in hand is the threat of deadly force after a bank robbery. It is easily justifiable to run the guy flat before gunfire erupts. Even after the perp opens up, are you not safer inside the cover of your car? Cover that is also mobile and can run the guy down? Gunfire is our last resort, not the first or only.

Why not wait for backup? Why not follow at a distance while waiting for that backup? There are numerous things to be learned from each of these events. If gunfire is unavoidable, then one option is to make sure that the perp has brought a pistol to a car fight. Can something still go wrong? Sure! The Sgt in this scenario is danged lucky to have survived, as he was facing not just a robber, but a dedicated (probably experienced) killer.

 

[bbbass]

Very sorry that you took my reply that way, as it was not intended. It is a question not an accusation. I have had my balls busted many times for making accusations, so now I ask questions. This is intended to be a discussion, a dialog, a learning experience. My point is to examine what actually happened and offer options to the LEO on the street right now so that he or she may survive a similar situation.

Some cred: Was an LEO for 31 years in King County, WA. A firearms instructor and EVOC instructor. Have a couple of Caliber Press survival seminars under my belt and tactical/risk management seminars by retired CHP Captain Gordon Graham. What I was offering was an LEO trained opinion and options - options that may not be obvious to some LEOs.

Very sorry for the clumsy way in which I did it.

If you want the thread to go in that direction, as the OP I don't have a problem with that. IMO what we need to do is make clear what applies to LEOs and what does not apply to laymen. Some tactics may, some not. With your training and valuable experience, you would be better able to address that than I. However, I might still have an opinion on some things.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Is .45ACP enough...?
Yes in most cases...with that said , so are many other calibers.

Bullet design...
Shot placement...
What sort of "chemical enhancement" , the person is on who is shot...
The overall willingness to live...
The body's overall shape , condition and tolerance to pain and shock...
Just how the bullet actually preforms when it hits the body...
These are all things to consider when studying the effects of a shooting and or bullets and calibers.

As for tactics for surviving a gunfight...?
Best one yet...Don't get into a gunfight.
Second best , If in a gunfight , do what you need to do , to survive.
One can easily "What if " oneself to death here.
Andy

 

[po18guy]

A doctor, after a physical exam, is able to state that we all have, um, "opinions" I try to make sure my opinion isn't full of the same stuff that comes out of the other thing we all have.

Say you're not a cop. Say some nut starts road raging you and nails the brakes in front of you. Pretty common. What can you do? Backup is N/A. Can't back up due to traffic. Gotta John Wayne it. He steps out with a gun. Do you shoot through your own windshield and risk ricochets and glass in your own eyes? I don't think so. "If" ( and that is a huge IF), time and vehicle placement allow, floor it and flatten the guy.

Your fave EDC gun is not taken as evidence. That in itself is a big plus. Having this plan in reserve also works for wife and driving age children. But, first avoid if at all possible.

Other than a 12ga. what else would have stopped the perp in the OP more quickly? He was probably so high that he still has not touched the bottom of his casket. I think that focusing on caliber alone here is misleading. Know of a deputy who landed 5 out of 6 .41 mags in a robber on a similar traffic stop - who eventually went down but survived to go to prison (in a wheelchair). Is .41 Magnum not enough?

 

[po18guy]

If you have the time, listen to the audio of the Norco California bank robbery shootout. Hundreds of rounds fired, from .38 Special to 308. One death. A detective at the very end. 100% preventable.

 

[surevaliance]

Please stay on topic! The discussion is whether .45ACP is the be all of stopping power or if it would be better to carry more rounds of a smaller caliber. The thread was pulled off to a discussion of LEO tactics. Your thoughts would be welcome on either, but please let's not devolve into a cop bashing. I'll request this thread be closed rather than have that.

Bashing? I prefer "summirizing".
However, you try to separate the question of efectivness of certain handgun calibers from police or military or mob tactics. Or all three adopted by civilians.
I would understand this if we were talking about slaughtering cattle point blank. In this case .22Lr would do the job at lowest cost.
Otherwise it is a complex matter.
Let's say unlike 9mm, .45 handguns have tendency of lower magazines' capacity, shorter effective distance, bigger bullet drop.

 

[Pops1911]

When you care enough to send the very best ... 45acp.

 

[bbbass]

Let's say unlike 9mm, .45 handguns have tendency of lower magazines' capacity, shorter effective distance, bigger bullet drop.

Agree. The question then... is it a more effective caliber that offsets a lower round count?

 

[Alexx1401]

You know, me thinks in the videos of the cops tasering all the drug heads, all they are doing is making them madder an all get out! I believe we should equip our officers with something that paralyzes them 'til they are cuffed and stuffed in a cell somewhere. Something that won't hurt them or have any negative side effects. Just immobilize them where they can be handled for everyone's safety. I.E. a paralyzing tranquilizer dart.

No matter what is given to LE's a LOT of the public will raise hell. Taser was one of the best things ever to come along. The "we hate all Cops" crowd went after them ever since for just that reason. They often work without leaving the dobad beaten to a pulp. Can't have that. They want to LE's to have to use force over and over so they can scream. If it was up to me? Cops says "you are under arrest." You have a choice. Go along and fight it in court, the correct way, or fight it then and there. Choose to fight it then and there? You should be put down hard and too damn bad what they have to do to you. Adults make piss poor choices then scream and cry like little spoiled kids when they get hurt. Now days many of them fight hoping for a big pay out.

 

[surevaliance]

Agree. The question then... is it a more effective caliber that offsets a lower round count?

I always believed that a small hit is better than a big miss.