.45ACP not enough?

[bbbass]

Haven't we had this conversation before?

Yes, but I hadn't seen and posted the video.

BTW, that producer has some other interesting vids on Youtube.

 

[bbbass]

.
Ths is exactly why I carry a GAU-8 with me at all times.
It's a little cumbersome but I've learned to make it work.
You just can't be too prepared.

At least you're able to conceal it...

 

[bbbass]

I just hang out with :
John Wayne...
Lee Marvin...
Steve McQueen
Clint Eastwood..
Bruce Lee...
Chuck Norris...
Andy

Mostly dead guys??? Hey, that might make a good movie!!!

 

[The Heretic]

My philosophy:

1) As long as a projectile has enough mass and power to penetrate to a vital organ and do damage to it, I don't think that the difference between .355" diameter and .451" diameter (unexpanded) will make much difference. If it expands, all the better, but then again, that one tenth of an inch (maybe a bit more expanded) probably won't make a difference.

2) That said, design of the projectile being equal, I take recoil as a partial, yet more visceral and empirical indication of the likelihood of a projectile to be able to penetrate deeper into the animal I am shooting. In short, with the same design projectile, and knowing how it performs in gel - I have more confidence in my .45 ACP than in my 9mm pistols. Also, at the moment, my .45 ACP pistols have as much or more capacity as my 9mm pistols (13 and 14 rounds .45 ACP vs. 12 and 14 9mm). I can get extended mags for both - 20 rd. mags for my SIGs, more for my Glock 21.

3) Center of mass is good, but for a drugged up individual, even stopping their heart won't necessarily stop their aggression. A shot that can reach their spinal cord might. Their brain might too. But like a dangerous animal, if multiple center of mass shots aren't working, you might want to take out a hip or two, then a shoulder or two - this is what guides in brown bear country recommend. Of course, in the heat of a battle, with fast CQB action, that is easier said than done.

Practice practice practice
Placement placement placement

 

[The Heretic]

I just hang out with :
John Wayne...
Lee Marvin...
Steve McQueen
Clint Eastwood..
Bruce Lee...
Chuck Norris...
Andy

 

[powermad]

Several years ago I watched a video of an officer making a traffic stop.
Rather large, angry male gets out and they go toe to toe.
The cop pulls his gun which was a .40 and unloaded it in the guys belly.
The guy takes the gun from the cop and is beating the crap out of him with it when more cops arrive and get him off of him and cuff him.
The guy was not drunk or on drugs, just pissed off.
IIRC the guy survived also.

 

[HA556]

You know, me thinks in the videos of the cops tasering all the drug heads, all they are doing is making them madder an all get out! I believe we should equip our officers with something that paralyzes them 'til they are cuffed and stuffed in a cell somewhere. Something that won't hurt them or have any negative side effects. Just immobilize them where they can be handled for everyone's safety. I.E. a paralyzing tranquilizer dart.

 

[The Heretic]

You know, me thinks in the videos of the cops tasering all the drug heads, all they are doing is making them madder an all get out! I believe we should equip our officers with something that paralyzes them 'til they are cuffed and stuffed in a cell somewhere. Something that won't hurt them or have any negative side effects. Just immobilize them where they can be handled for everyone's safety. I.E. a paralyzing tranquilizer dart.

Yeah add more drugs to their system. What could go wrong?

 

[HA556]

Something that won't hurt them or have any negative side effects

Hence this comment here.

 

[Cerberus Group]

State to pay $2.5 million to man shot 16 times by police

This guy was in bed in a small room and didn't get 2 then 1.

Trying to figure out how this refers to training with the Mozambique drill...did I miss something?

 

[bbbass]

I.E. a paralyzing tranquilizer dart.

Succinylcholine?

 

[wp4]

Trying to figure out how this refers to training with the Mozambique drill...did I miss something?

I wasn't quite sure either if you meant examples of mozambique drill shooting, or whole mag full to the body. Thx for specifying! I can't say I have seen that.

Is your point that it is very difficult to pull off in the heat of the moment, and shooting center mass is better? What do you teach in your handgun class (if you don't mind giving the free info)?

 

[No_Regerts]

Trying to figure out how this refers to training with the Mozambique drill...did I miss something?

Just an example of how fairly well trained people will revert to lizard brain vs 2 in chest, 1 in the head.

It also shows how bad shot placement, even in the confines of a small room, results in people surviving pistol round wounds.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I wasn't quite sure either if you meant examples of mozambique drill shooting, or whole mag full to the body. Thx for specifying! I can't say I have seen that.

Is your point that it is very difficult to pull off in the heat of the moment, and shooting center mass is better? What do you teach in your handgun class (if you don't mind giving the free info)?

Having studied shootings for 25 years of instructing, as well as being in a few myself...and sitting down in many AAR's, debriefs with both LE and citizens. In those AAR's and debriefs, looking over dash, body and surveillance cameras, there's one glaring thing that I think a lot of instructors and some schools miss...what's reality vs theory? What does the brain do when confronted with such things?

Three examples come to mind right off...can anyone provide documentation and /or video of the following; Mozambique, shooting from retention, or in low light using the Harries technique?

In over 20 years, I've not found anyone using the above, yet they are still taught to both LE and civilian alike. And these are things that have been ingrained into the LE firearms curriculum, yet have not been used. When confronted with such situations, the body will respond a bit differently when the training is complex.

Mozambique, the original drill...fire 2, wait for response, then fire 1 to the head. We've gone over this many times how pistol bullets are under powered...minimum standard response should be at least 3-5. What are we waiting for? Are we counting our shots? Certainly hope not.

Shooting from retention. The brain and body like to have a reference..sights come to mind. With retention, there is no reference. What we see in CQB situations, are people point shooting, but the firearm is out in front of them just enough so the peripheral can pick it up.

Harries. Too complex for the person without usually two things happening; 1. Hands in wrong position. I see this continually in low stress practice. 2. Hands/arms going in front of the muzzle.

I've stated this a zillion times on here and other places...if the pistol round isn't going in the snot locker, you'd better place them with the most impact. That being, High and Tight. High...above the nipple line. Tight...no wider than the head. All the vitals and major bleed points are right there. Which brings me to another point...IPSC targets are anatomically incorrect for scoring...UGH!

I am not the end all for instruction, but have and still research as many shootings, both LE and civilian alike to see what's being done and used on the street.

Feel free to ask away any questions, am not in it for the money...am in it to pass along information I've witnessed over the many years of being in the biz.

 

[No_Regerts]

Having studied shootings for 25 years of instructing, as well as being in a few myself...and sitting down in many AAR's, debriefs with both LE and citizens. In those AAR's and debriefs, looking over dash, body and surveillance cameras, there's one glaring thing that I think a lot of instructors and some schools miss...what's reality vs theory? What does the brain do when confronted with such things?

Three examples come to mind right off...can anyone provide documentation and /or video of the following; Mozambique, shooting from retention, or in low light using the Harries technique?

In over 20 years, I've not found anyone using the above, yet they are still taught to both LE and civilian alike. And these are things that have been ingrained into the LE firearms curriculum, yet have not been used. When confronted with such situations, the body will respond a bit differently when the training is complex.

Mozambique, the original drill...fire 2, wait for response, then fire 1 to the head. We've gone over this many times how pistol bullets are under powered...minimum standard response should be at least 3-5. What are we waiting for? Are we counting our shots? Certainly hope not.

Shooting from retention. The brain and body like to have a reference..sights come to mind. With retention, there is no reference. What we see in CQB situations, are people point shooting, but the firearm is out in front of them just enough so the peripheral can pick it up.

Harries. Too complex for the person without usually two things happening; 1. Hands in wrong position. I see this continually in low stress practice. 2. Hands/arms going in front of the muzzle.

I've stated this a zillion times on here and other places...if the pistol round isn't going in the snot locker, you'd better place them with the most impact. That being, High and Tight. High...above the nipple line. Tight...no wider than the head. All the vitals and major bleed points are right there. Which brings me to another point...IPSC targets are anatomically incorrect for scoring...UGH!

I am not the end all for instruction, but have and still research as many shootings, both LE and civilian alike to see what's being done and used on the street.

Feel free to ask away any questions, am not in it for the money...am in it to pass along information I've witnessed over the many years of being in the biz.

Its another realm where I think hunters are further ahead, much like bullet technology. A hunter can explain exactly where to place a bullet to cause a quick death. They are likely using a bullet that is more advanced and made to cause a quick death. There are books that show animals at various angles and what shot placement hits vitals from those angles.

 

[sabasarge]

Its another realm where I think hunters are further ahead, much like bullet technology. A hunter can explain exactly where to place a bullet to cause a quick death. They are likely using a bullet that is more advanced and made to cause a quick death. There are books that show animals at various angles and what shot placement hits vitals from those angles.

If I may.....while I agree with your point regarding bullet specs, it seems to me that for it to be apples to apples it would require the hunter to make his kill shot with his target animal putting the hunter under pressure, e.g. an elephant, lion, cape buffalo, mountain lion, bear, etc. in full charge at him.
Hunter or not, we all know that a shot to the heart or cerebral cortex should do the trick, but making that shot with a 700lb bull elk coming hard at you might complicate matters.
Give me my pistol and a human target standing static 10 or 20 feet from me and I'm pretty sure I could (should) put him down with one shot. Having him come hard at me from that range with a knife, let alone shooting at me might stiffen the odds, regardless of my knowledge of proper shot placement.

 

[No_Regerts]

If I may.....while I agree with your point regarding bullet specs, it seems to me that for it to be apples to apples it would require the hunter to make his kill shot with his target animal putting the hunter under pressure, e.g. an elephant, lion, cape buffalo, mountain lion, bear, etc. in full charge at him.
Hunter or not, we all know that a shot to the heart or cerebral cortex should do the trick, but making that shot with a 700lb bull elk coming hard at you might complicate matters.
Give me my pistol and a human target standing static 10 or 20 feet from me and I'm pretty sure I could (should) put him down with one shot. Having him come hard at me from that range with a knife, let alone shooting at me might stiffen the odds, regardless of my knowledge of proper shot placement.

I think you're misunderstanding me a bit. What I am saying, is if you gave a hunter a drawing of a deer, he could circle heart, lungs, liver, spine, and explain where the voids are in the chest.

Most self defense minded folks who dont kill things every year, may know general areas on a human, but not like a hunter.

Having killed lots of critters, I know what rib to try to slip through to cross and hit an off-shoulder. I know that a bear facing me has his vitals sitting far lower in the chest than I'd normally guess and that hitting high will not stop him. Etc etc.

 

[sabasarge]

Understood, thank you.

 

[No_Regerts]

Understood, thank you.

That, and think of how many cool hunting bullets exist while we are still stuck on Gold Dot, HST, Golden Saber, XTP for handgun bullets.

 

[Certaindeaf]

In the old days coppers carried 18 rounds of .38.
They all died.