4473s

[speeddemon94]

So I am doing some research. The 1968 bill started thihgs rolling and then the 86 bill, or FOPA,

The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 created a national background check system to prevent firearms sales to prohibited persons. In order to comply with the prohibition on a Federal registry of non-NFA items, background check records are legally required to be destroyed after 24 hours.

The Act also forbade the U.S. Government agency from keeping a registry directly linking non-National Firearms Act firearms to their owners, the specific language of this law (Federal Law 18 U.S.C. 926 (18 USC § 926 - Rules and regulations | Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute) being:
No such rule or regulation prescribed [by the Attorney General] after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.


So where did they get the loophole that the 4473s are not given to us the next day to destroy. Why is it that we have a de-facto registration already?

Nevertheless, the ATF Firearms Tracing System (FTS) contains hundreds of millions of firearm tracing and registration records, and consists of several databases:
1. Multiple Sale Reports. Over 460,000 (2003) Multiple Sales reports (ATF F 3310.4 - a registration record with specific firearms and owner name and address - increasing by about 140,000 per year). Reported as 4.2 million records in 2010.
2. Suspect Guns. All guns suspected of being used for criminal purposes but not recovered by law enforcement. This database includes (ATF's own examples), individuals purchasing large quantities of firearms, and dealers with improper record keeping. May include guns observed by law enforcement in an estate, or at a gun show, or elsewhere.[citation needed] Reported as 34,807 in 2010.
3. Traced Guns. Over 4 million detail records from all traces since inception.[8]This is a registration record which includes the personal information of the first retail purchaser, along with the identity of the selling dealer.
4. Out of Business Records. Data is manually collected from paper Out-of-Business records (or input from computer records) and entered into the trace system by ATF. These are registration records which include name and address, make, model, serial and caliber of the firearm(s), as well as data from the 4473 form - in digital or image format. In March, 2010, ATF reported receiving several hundred million records since 1968. [9]
5. Theft Guns. Firearms reported as stolen to ATF. Contained 330,000 records in 2010.[8] Contains only thefts from licensed dealers and interstate carriers (optional).[8] Does not have an interface to the FBI's National Crime Information Center (NCIC) theft data base, where the majority of stolen, lost and missing firearms are reported

So I hope this makes it nice and clear. If they can get the BGC in any form, any stronger, then we will in fact have far beyond the De-facto, and will be fully registered.


This is the kind of stuff we need to be throwing right back at them for repeal. These laws need to go away.

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[speeddemon94]

It's been bouncing around in there for a while, but it seems to me that we would be able to take the statute in, purchase a firearm, go back in 24 hours and demand it back so that we can assure it's proper destruction.

But then I see a spot where it says that they must keep them for 20 years....Just dont know what's the truth.

 

[SheepDog223]

They're going to do whatever they want. They can have fake ID's. They can talk on cell phones and drive. They can have new full auto's. They can.... Anyone else? I'm sure there has to be more...

 

[aslinged]

A few years back I sold the slide off a Glock that I had purchased through an FFL. I kept the lower/frame to build something different.

Two and half years after I sold the slide, the ATF called and asked if I still had the lower and to whom I'd sold the slide. Apparently the slide had wound up in "a funny spot." The only thing preventing registration by default is the free trade of arms between private individuals.

 

[speeddemon94]

A few years back I sold the slide off a Glock that I had purchased through an FFL. I kept the lower/frame to build something different.

Two and half years after I sold the slide, the ATF called and asked if I still had the lower and to whom I'd sold the slide. Apparently the slide had wound up in "a funny spot." The only thing preventing registration by default is the free trade of arms between private individuals.

Right, which is exactly why they hate FTF and want to stop it. Even if they passed a bill, they wont ever stop it, folks will just become more careful.

I still think someone armed with the law, could get some traction on getting this fixed. I know the government has everything we have bought, registered and on record, but that is against their own law. I know, they make the law therefore they are above the law, but after some of thins dies down a bit, this would be a good thing to bring to the attention of the gun rights groups.

The records need to be destroyed IAW the law of the land to protect us from registration.

 

[mortar maggot]

After US Attorney Thomas Wales was killed, the ATF checked on a bunch of guns. As I recall Makorov 9mm's, if you had bought one you got a visit. At least this is how I remember it was per the news, which can get things all wrong as we know.

If there is no registration, how did they know who had what?

 

[speeddemon94]

I know there is registration already, but it is against the law and should be fought. That's what I was getting at.

I'm looking for the US statute that says the 4473 should be destroyed after 24 hours. Although I know the name and SN goes straigt to the database when it's called in for the BGC.

 

[Hawaiian]

The Feds are prohibited from keeping records. NICS is not supposed to keep a record. However, in Oregon the background check goes through the Oregon State Police who then runs the NICS check. OSP, by law, do keep a record of the sale for five years. And I doubt they ever get around to deleting it after five years. So if you bought a gun from a FFL in Oregon, the State Police DO have a record of it.

 

[speeddemon94]

Right, then why is it that if we go ask for the 4473, that according to ATF rules the retailer has to retain it indefinitely? It's supposed to be after 24 hours. And the ATF has record of every firearm bought through a dealer on a 4473, to think otherwise would be foolish.

The law exists to protect us, but the feds are ignoring it. I want to know who we talk to to go about fixing that. Though I know it is also foolish of me to believe we ever could.

 

[John H]

Right, then why is it that if we go ask for the 4473, that according to ATF rules the retailer has to retain it indefinitely? It's supposed to be after 24 hours. And the ATF has record of every firearm bought through a dealer on a 4473, to think otherwise would be foolish.

The law exists to protect us, but the feds are ignoring it. I want to know who we talk to to go about fixing that. Though I know it is also foolish of me to believe we ever could.

Where does it say 4473's to be destroyed after 24 hours??

Background checks are different then 4473, NICS are suppose to destroy records . But where does it say 4473's??

 

[John H]

. Although I know the name and SN goes straigt to the database when it's called in for the BGC.

Really? When was the last time you stood there and heard them call out the SN to NICS, never has that been done in front of me. They don't even report which model or make it is.

The only thing that is told is , "pistol or Long Gun, or Other".


Do you have any hard core proof??

 

[Jamie6.5]

Really? When was the last time you stood there and heard them call out the SN to NICS,

More than once. Make type/model and serial#.

Do you have any hard core proof??

Nope, but maybe next time my favorite vendor will allow me to video-record it, if you won't take my word for it.

 

[John H]

More than once. Make type/model and serial#.

And they give that info to NICS??? I know they don't do that here in WA. Maybe it is just a OR problem??

 

[speeddemon94]

Where does it say 4473's to be destroyed after 24 hours??

Background checks are different then 4473, NICS are suppose to destroy records . But where does it say 4473's??

So then explain the purpose of the 4473. It is for the NICS. It IS the form for the BGC. The purpose of the post is the fact that there is conflicting info everywhere. 24 hours, 20 days, 6 months. Either way ALL records are to be destroyed to prevent registration. The 4473 is in fact a record.

Really? When was the last time you stood there and heard them call out the SN to NICS, never has that been done in front of me. They don't even report which model or make it is.

The only thing that is told is , "pistol or Long Gun, or Other".


Do you have any hard core proof??

The last time I bought a firearm from a dealer. No, I cant get the proof because the retailer wont release the record to me for destruction.


You seem awfully angry about me questioning this. The provisions are listed in the FOPA and Brady Bill, look them up, I did.

 

[Jamie6.5]

And they give that info to NICS??? I know they don't do that here in WA. Maybe it is just a OR problem??

In Oregon, they (the FFL) don't call the FBI, they call the Oregon State Police. The OSP accesses the FBI's NICS database and relays the info, along with state info regarding violent misdemeanors and restraining orders etc.
And, the OSP wants their cut apparently.

And yes, the OSP keeps the gun AND owner info for five (5) years.

 

[elsie]

So then explain the purpose of the 4473. It is for the NICS. It IS the form for the BGC. The purpose of the post is the fact that there is conflicting info everywhere. 24 hours, 20 days, 6 months. Either way ALL records are to be destroyed to prevent registration. The 4473 is in fact a record.

The 4473 existed long before the NICS came into existence. It was brought about by the GCA of 1968 and is required to be retained for 20 years (27 CFR 478.129). If you go out of business before then, all 4473s are required to be sent to the BATFE. OTOH, all info from the form is copied to the bound log book and that is retained basically forever.


elsie

 

[speeddemon94]

Right, and t hen I found reference to the provision in the brady bill that said 24 hours....This thread was more about clarification than fighting...I'm trying to see if anyone else can find the contradictions I have.

But that is basically the defacto registration we have already is the 4473. That should be stopped, as it is illegal.

 

[Ligito]

No, not all of the info is copied to the bound book, only the essentials.
It is an acquisition and disposition form and does not have the room for everything on a 4473.

 

[elsie]

No, not all of the info is copied to the bound book, only the essentials.
It is an acquisition and disposition form and does not have the room for everything on a 4473.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't have an FFL myself and was going by the gripes of a dealer from a number of years ago. B-)

Right, and t hen I found reference to the provision in the brady bill that said 24 hours....

That may be referring to the transaction details of the NICS. IIRC the number that they give you which is written on the 4473 is the transaction ID. Now whether or not they actually destroy those details is another question. I think likely not.


elsie