Who do you Trust for Training?

[Catfishmoon]

I think instructor led training is most important for a new shooter learning firearm safety and handling, then that shooter should spend the next few years spending their money on ammo and range time and getting the basics down solid; practice-practice-practice. At that point they can find an instructor that is fluent in the aspect they then want to focus on; perhaps that is a fast draw from concealment followed by quick target acquisition with a red dot, or something totally different. For me, that would determine where I went for more training...
I think training can be money well spent, but it does have its caveats. Some trainees want to over-advertise the names of well known trainers whose classes they have attended, as if that automatically increased their shooting ability. Like weekend golfers who attend seminars from well-known retired professional golfer and their wall at home has the photograph taken together next to a framed certificate.
I have also observed in life that those who are best at a given task, frequently make poor coaches to pass that skill onward. The best basketball coaches are not Michael Jordan or LeBron James, it's the guy who sat at the end of the bench observing the nuances of the game for 15 years because he simply loves the sport. His talent is coaching the game as opposed to playing it...
But let's face it, it's a lot cooler to attend a Michael Jordan basketball camp.

 

[1775usmc]

If the instructor can't do or won't run the drill he's having you do that's a red flag.

I also have personal requirements when taking advice from someone simply from their physical abilities and how they present themselves.

 

[mhayd93]

Here is a quick reference sheet to screen for quality training:

-Instructors are at least 6' 4"
-Instructors are absolutely stacked (BMI does not exceed 9%)
-Their outfit consists of tactical khakis, combat boots, and a tight black polo shirt.
(bonus points if they wear their G-Shock watch on the inner part of their wrist)
-Instructors only refer to rifles and pistols as "weapons systems" or "platform."
-The word, "dynamic" is utilized at least every other sentence.

Hope this helps!

 

[1775usmc]

Here is a quick reference sheet to screen for quality training:

-Instructors are at least 6' 4"
-Instructors are absolutely stacked (BMI does not exceed 9%)
-Their outfit consists of tactical khakis, combat boots, and a tight black polo shirt.
(bonus points if they wear their G-Shock watch on the inner part of their wrist)
-Instructors only refer to rifles and pistols as "weapons systems" or "platform."
-The word, "dynamic" is utilized at least every other sentence.

Hope this helps!

Pass

 

[Lilhigbee]

Here is a quick reference sheet to screen for quality training:

-Instructors are at least 6' 4"
-Instructors are absolutely stacked (BMI does not exceed 9%)
-Their outfit consists of tactical khakis, combat boots, and a tight black polo shirt.
(bonus points if they wear their G-Shock watch on the inner part of their wrist)
-Instructors only refer to rifles and pistols as "weapons systems" or "platform."
-The word, "dynamic" is utilized at least every other sentence.

Hope this helps!

Goatee!! You forgot the goatee!! Not even worth considering without a goatee. Even the women.

 

[wired]

Here is a quick reference sheet to screen for quality training:

-Instructors are at least 6' 4"
-Instructors are absolutely stacked (BMI does not exceed 9%)
-Their outfit consists of tactical khakis, combat boots, and a tight black polo shirt.
(bonus points if they wear their G-Shock watch on the inner part of their wrist)
-Instructors only refer to rifles and pistols as "weapons systems" or "platform."
-The word, "dynamic" is utilized at least every other sentence.

Hope this helps!

You forget Celtic tattoos

 

[mhayd93]

You forget Celtic tattoos

100%, I can't believe I missed that one!

 

[Rkangel]

Here is a quick reference sheet to screen for quality training:

-Instructors are at least 6' 4"
-Instructors are absolutely stacked (BMI does not exceed 9%)
-Their outfit consists of tactical khakis, combat boots, and a tight black polo shirt.
(bonus points if they wear their G-Shock watch on the inner part of their wrist)
-Instructors only refer to rifles and pistols as "weapons systems" or "platform."
-The word, "dynamic" is utilized at least every other sentence.

Hope this helps!

These are right up there with YouTubers insisting on showing me the weapon is clear, before starting the video. Or the ubiquitous "tip to butt" GarandThumb shout out (nothing against GarandThumb). Or everyone and their aunt using shot timers, because they saw someone cool use shot timers, so shot timers must be cool, therefore I need a shot timer, even though I don't know what they are used for...

It's like the 2A version of virtue signalling.

 

[WillametteWill]

Here is a quick reference sheet to screen for quality training:

-Instructors are at least 6' 4"
-Instructors are absolutely stacked (BMI does not exceed 9%)
-Their outfit consists of tactical khakis, combat boots, and a tight black polo shirt.
(bonus points if they wear their G-Shock watch on the inner part of their wrist)
-Instructors only refer to rifles and pistols as "weapons systems" or "platform."
-The word, "dynamic" is utilized at least every other sentence.

Hope this helps!

Add...

• Wears hat backward with wraparound sunglasses (behind their head) that completely eliminate their peripheral vision. (Or glasses always on the brim of the hat when it is forward.)
• Calls everyone bro
• Uses the F-word as a noun, verb, and adjective in at least every other sentence
• Constantly has to tell you how much everyone else's training sucks and they are the first one in the history of ever to get it right
• (Extra credit if they manage to call Cooper, Clint, and Ayoob Fudds during a single rant)
• They don't need no stinking RSOs, other than maybe one flying monkey that follows them around, making sure their cape doesn't become soiled.

 

[titsonritz]

These are right up there with YouTubers insisting on showing me the weapon is clear, before starting the video. Or the ubiquitous "tip to butt" GarandThumb shout out (nothing against GarandThumb). Or everyone and their aunt using shot timers, because they saw someone cool use shot timers, so shot timers must be cool, therefore I need a shot timer, even though I don't know what they are used for...

It's like the 2A version of virtue signalling.

Shot timers are a legitimate diagnostic tool.

 

[Rkangel]

Shot timers are a legitimate diagnostic tool.

If used properly. That was the point I was making. There are a lot of so called "trainers" and influencers out there giving bad advice with the appearance of good tools. It's like trying to drive a nail with a screwdriver while being taught by a cook. All the individual pieces may be good in their proper context but turn into a crap sandwich when improperly applied together by someone who cannot teach.

 

[titsonritz]

If used properly. That was the point I was making. There are a lot of so called "trainers" and influencers out there giving bad advice with the appearance of good tools. It's like trying to drive a nail with a screwdriver while being taught by a cook. All the individual pieces may be good in their proper context but turn into a crap sandwich when improperly applied together by someone who cannot teach.

Like who? I'd say if you that's the case find better trainers. I can attest that Bill Blowers is second to none in use of a timer for diagnosis. Dummy rounds and shot timers are probably the two most useful and cost effective training aids available.

 

[1775usmc]

 

[WillametteWill]

Regarding shot timers:
I agree with @titsonritz that they can be a great tool, but also agree with @Rkangel that there are many of the 'bro' instructors and gun tubers (as I point out in post #69) in particular that focus on the sub-one-second concealed draw to first shot as the be all, end all of training. Sure, quick draws are important, but there can be major training scars caused when you spend hours focusing on always drawing quickly and shooting to beat the mystical time.

Sometimes you need to draw and not shoot. (If someone wants to hear my eyes roll, make me listen to someone saying "My gun's not coming out of the holster unless I'm going to shoot." Dumb logic) Under stress (stress as in life and death, not a blue timer on your hip) if all someone does is draw fast and always or nearly always shoots, guess what is going to happen under stress? They are more likely to shoot in a no-shoot situation.

Credit to Erick Gelhaus on this, when you have shoot option targets, they should be called no-shoot / shoot targets (notice the order, it is intentional), and you should have more no-shoots than shoots (like in the real world). That is how I set up my classes.

We did some training last year with Greg Ellifritz where we were on the timer while trying different revolver reloading methods. Super helpful. Timers are tools, just like hammers. Properly used, they are useful.

 

[titsonritz]

Credit to Erick Gelhaus on this, when you have shoot option targets, they should be called no-shoot / shoot targets (notice the order, it is intentional), and you should have more no-shoots than shoots (like in the real world)

He would know from personal experience.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I've not read the whole thread...My preferences for firearms classes...yes, I take classes every year, and so should everyone leading courses. If you run into one that doesn't take at least a class a year, find others to teach you. If they do take a class, ask them what it was and get some details on what was presented...if they balk, you walk.

Instructor vs Teacher.
Most anyone can instruct. They just spit out what they learned. Think of them as that piece of paper that comes in the box for the item that needs to be put together. The Instructions - Instructor. Instructor tells you how.
Teacher shows you why, and can place it with something actually relative, not theory. Can tailor make a class and change gears with that class on the fly without having to ponder much...based on what's needed not wanted.

I prefer someone who's been there and done that, but not everyone who has can present well.
But I find legitimate people who have been there and done that, and aren't into themselves have much more to offer than those that don't.
They teach with a quality and aire about them that is not arrogant, but from their experiences can readily correct detail things that others miss. Some are more squared away with how they present and interact with their students. The quality top to bottom with them is rarely found. They can intertwine the curriculum with actual experience that they themself have seen, not just heard from others...this tends to form the base of their curriculum.

Two come to mind...Jon Dufresne of Kinetic Consulting. Soft spoken, small stature yet can command a room like few can. Second Bill Blowers of Tap-Rack Tactical. Top trainer in the SWAT world, a more of a harder charger, but easy on the student.
Both can readily identify student shortcomings and weed out potential problems that will rear its ugly head further down the training journey. A teacher can readily do this, as they have actual experience to compare with.

 

[Rkangel]

Like who? I'd say if you that's the case find better trainers. I can attest that Bill Blowers is second to none in use of a timer for diagnosis. Dummy rounds and shot timers are probably the two most useful and cost effective training aids available.

I'm not going to mention names, but based on their published videos, and local experiences with their staff, I know a few "trainers" I won't use any time soon. And as I mentioned earlier about the similarities to my experiences with "martial arts trainers", I am not interested in wasting time, money, or my life on bad teaching. Unfortunately, with any type of self defense training you may never know that the training you received sucked until it's too late...
When lives are potentially on the line the decision becomes most important. Teachers need to be responsible for providing a quality education and ready to back it up with proof. And students need to be responsible for thoroughly vetting the claims of their prospective teachers.

 

[WillametteWill]

He would know from personal experience.

Well, yes. But it seems like it was a shoot scenario.

 

[titsonritz]

Well, yes. But it seems like it was a shoot scenario.

I agree.

 

[titsonritz]

I'm not going to mention names, but based on their published videos, and local experiences with their staff, I know a few "trainers" I won't use any time soon. And as I mentioned earlier about the similarities to my experiences with "martial arts trainers", I am not interested in wasting time, money, or my life on bad teaching. Unfortunately, with any type of self defense training you may never know that the training you received sucked until it's too late...
When lives are potentially on the line the decision becomes most important. Teachers need to be responsible for providing a quality education and ready to back it up with proof.

So are you allowing your negative experiences to keep you from training classes?

And students need to be responsible for thoroughly vetting the claims of their prospective teachers.

Personally, I try to do my best at being an informed consumer on all my purchases including training.