WA AOW assembly

[zane]

Since we are currently SOL for SBR's in WA, I had another idea for a build... but the logistics of the NFA rules are where I need some help.

My idea involves an AK pistol with a VFG. I know that ATF's interpretation of the law is "pistol + VFG = AOW" under any and all circumstances, which means that the pistol would have to be registered as an AOW with the proper tax stamp.

My confusion is here: Would I have to do a Form 1 with a $200 stamp and install the VFG myself, or could I just buy the pistol through a Class 3 dealer with a Form 4 and a $5 stamp? Would the Class 3 dealer charge a hefty fee for the transfer? Or are there any other option for this build that I'm missing?

Thanks in advance!

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[zane]

Also, if any of my information is incorrect please let me know. I'm trying to learn as much about the NFA realm as possible. Thanks!

 

[Nwcid]

If you build it yourself you will pay $200 "making tax" on the Form 1.

IF you can find one already registered as an AOW, or if you find a manufacture, not dealer, willing to "assemble" it for you then you would only pay a $5 transfer fee. You will have to check with the manufacture to see what they would charge. While it is simple to slide the VFG on they will have to do paperwork and a transfer for you. My guess would be this would cost you around $100.

Your information is correct and those are your 2 options.


IMHO I cant see it being worth the $$$ or the hassle to put a VFG on a pistol. It is your $$$ and your time. If that is what you want that is what you want.

 

[zane]

If you build it yourself you will pay $200 "making tax" on the Form 1.

IF you can find one already registered as an AOW, or if you find a manufacture, not dealer, willing to "assemble" it for you then you would only pay a $5 transfer fee. You will have to check with the manufacture to see what they would charge. While it is simple to slide the VFG on they will have to do paperwork and a transfer for you. My guess would be this would cost you around $100.

Your information is correct and those are your 2 options.


IMHO I cant see it being worth the $$$ or the hassle to put a VFG on a pistol. It is your $$$ and your time. If that is what you want that is what you want.

Thank you for the help! I guess I'll just have to find a manufacturer and see if they can do it for a reasonable cost. I wouldn't spend $100 for the install, but I could probably convince myself to do it for something like $50.

 

[zane]

As for my reasoning: I think that an AK pistol with a VFG and scout scope mount with an eotech/holosight would be the next best thing to an SBR... And it would be fun as ****!

 

[Gov't Mule]

Thank you for the help! I guess I'll just have to find a manufacturer and see if they can do it for a reasonable cost. I wouldn't spend $100 for the install, but I could probably convince myself to do it for something like $50.

You should understand that it will cost any manufacturer a $200 stamp to manufacture an AOW. The transfer fee on an AOW is $5. So any manufacturer that charges you less than $200 will be losing $$. That's why Serbu shorties cost what they do; the manufacturer's $200 stamp is figured into the wholesale price of the firearm.

 

[coctailer]

You should understand that it will cost any manufacturer a $200 stamp to manufacture an AOW. The transfer fee on an AOW is $5. So any manufacturer that charges you less than $200 will be losing $$. That's why Serbu shorties cost what they do; the manufacturer's $200 stamp is figured into the wholesale price of the firearm.

Manufacturers don't pay the $200 tax.
Serbus cost a lot because they are difficult to make. Cutting a pump shotgun that short and having it cycle smoothly is not easy.

 

[coctailer]

If you build it yourself you will pay $200 "making tax" on the Form 1.

IF you can find one already registered as an AOW, or if you find a manufacture, not dealer, willing to "assemble" it for you then you would only pay a $5 transfer fee. You will have to check with the manufacture to see what they would charge. While it is simple to slide the VFG on they will have to do paperwork and a transfer for you. My guess would be this would cost you around $100.

Your information is correct and those are your 2 options.

You are right on man.

Making and transferring an AOW like the OP wants, I would charge $100. $50 for engraving, and $50 transfer. My engraver is down for a bit, so I would sub it out, so I would only really profit the $50 transfer.
I wouldn't charge for the actual install of the VFG. I think I would get razzed pretty hard if I charged to put that thing on.

 

[Nwcid]

You should understand that it will cost any manufacturer a $200 stamp to manufacture an AOW. The transfer fee on an AOW is $5. So any manufacturer that charges you less than $200 will be losing $$. That's why Serbu shorties cost what they do; the manufacturer's $200 stamp is figured into the wholesale price of the firearm.

No it wont. That is WHY they are manufactures. They pay for their SOT on top of their FFL which is an annual $500 fee. Here is some reading for you, National Firearms Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[8ball]

You can do that legally in WA? So the only difference between this AOR and an SBR is the lack of a shoulder stock? And it's not caught by the 'any weapon' part of RCW 9.41.010 because it wasn't 'made from a rifle'?

(17) "Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

Of course the SBR rules are likely unconstitutional on both the federal and state level, so hopefully at some point they will be overturned.

 

[Gov't Mule]

I stand corrected.

 

[Nwcid]

You can do that legally in WA?

Yes, AOW, DD and Silencers are legal in WA. SBR, SBS and MG are illegal in WA (there are some grandfathered ones legally owned).

So the only difference between this AOR and an SBR is the lack of a shoulder stock?

Not the only difference, but basically true. To be this kind of AOW (there are several kinds) it has to have been a pistol to begin with. You can not take the stock off a rifle , put a VFG on it and have an AOW. If you take the stock off a rifle and put short barrel(s) on it then it is an SBR, since it was a rifle.

And it's not caught by the 'any weapon' part of RCW 9.41.010 because it wasn't 'made from a rifle'?

Not sure what part of that RCW you are referring to so I can not comment on it at this point.

Here is a link that gives the actual definitions from the ATF, <broken link removed>

 

[zane]

You guys are great, thank you for all the help! I have a couple other purchases planned first, but once I'm ready to start this I'll talk to some local class 3 manufacturers.

 

[wsu 5.9er]

Why not just use a hand stop? It's not considered a verticle foregrip by the ATF, so it's legal to use on an AR/AK pistol.

There have been some letters from the ATF tech branch stating that a Magpul AFG is legal to use on an AR pistol. You could always write them a letter asking them if it is ok to use an AFG on your AK pistol and see what they say.

 

[WaXD]

Yes, AOW, DD and Silencers are legal in WA. SBR, SBS and MG are illegal in WA (there are some grandfathered ones legally owned). [/url]

So where would the Draco pistol fall in our regs? I know the Serbu's are sold here, but I haven't seen a Draco.

I want to build a VZ-58 Pistol and if I understand it correctly, starting with a new receiver, I can build one if the barrel is under 12 inches long.

 

[Nwcid]

So where would the Draco pistol fall in our ergs?

They are a pistol if sold as such.......

I know the Serbu's are sold here, but I haven't seen a Draco.

Serbu's are AOW.

I want to build a VZ-58 Pistol and if I understand it correctly, starting with a new receiver, I can build one if the barrel is under 12 inches long.

Yes you have to start with a virgin receiver to build a pistol.

 

[Fumes]

From a legal standpoint what's better to have if you were to be questioned by LE?
An AOW or say an AR pistol with an magpul AFG with a note from big Brother saying you have the OK from the ATF?
What if anything do you have with an AOW?
Either way I'm sure if you had an encounter with someone not willing to listen or didn't want to or couldn't tell the difference between the two and an SBR/ ilegal weapon, you could still have it taken away and get a ride.
Just trying to figure out what would be the lesser of the two that would cause confusion or problems if you were ever questioned.

 

[8ball]

Not sure what part of that RCW you are referring to so I can not comment on it at this point.

The RCW definition of SBR is different to the Feds.

(17) "Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

I guess this still works OK because this was a virgin pistol to begin with. Which is ridiculous but whatever...

 

[wsu 5.9er]

I've heard you should always have copies of your ATF paperwork for NFA stuff (AOW, MG, Supressors, SBR, SBS, etc) whenever you take it out. If you had a AR/AK pistol, I would bring a copy of the ATF letter from the tech branch stating it was still considered a pistol.

From a legal standpoint what's better to have if you were to be questioned by LE?
An AOW or say an AR pistol with an magpul AFG with a note from big Brother saying you have the OK from the ATF?
What if anything do you have with an AOW?
Either way I'm sure if you had an encounter with someone not willing to listen or didn't want to or couldn't tell the difference between the two and an SBR/ ilegal weapon, you could still have it taken away and get a ride.
Just trying to figure out what would be the lesser of the two that would cause confusion or problems if you were ever questioned.