Tula ammo

[Boboclown]

If he shot that many steel cased rounds, let it cool, then chamber a brass cased round and fired the case would most likely get stuck. This is one of the scenarios that lead to people complaining about lacquer, even though it was just carbon causing the expanded brass to get stuck.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Where can i go to buy wolf and golden tiger? I cannot seem to find any local. Only tula:/

If you ever get to Portland, I've got a 500 box a Wolf, $100.

 

[DizzyJ]

Ok, here's my take on Wolf/Tula/GoldenTiger, etc steel cased Ammo.

It really depends on your rifle as to whether or not it'll run the steel cased ammo without too much issue.

1) Tight chambers will cause issues. The steel cases certainly do expand, but possibly not as much as brass. Therefore you don't have as good of a seal, AND the powder is dirty as crap. The combination plays havoc on guns with tighter chamber tolerances.

2) The size of the gas port hole has a HUGE effect on how well the steel ammo will function in said AR. The larger the port, the better it will run. If your AR is over gassed, it will probably have less issues running the steel cased ammo. A black hole weaponry barrel I tried it in short stroked (I believe due to the properly sized smaller port, same thing with a Daniel Defense rifle I tried it in).

3) Steel cased ammo is fairly underpowered compared to its brass counterparts. This also contributes to reliability issues in properly sized gas ports vs over gassed guns (see above).

4) Wolf is an importer, NOT a manufacturer of ammo!!!!!! At least this was the case a few years ago back whe. I did all of my testing. IN FACT, the Wolf boxes had TULA stamped steel cartridges inside them! I even took pictures of this back when I did my first testing. Now, NOT ALL Wolf is Tula. As mentioned they import ammo produced by other ammunition factories and have the Wolf name printed on the head.

5) The Tula plant and Barnaul plant were the two places in Russia that produced the steel cased ammo. WOLF ALSO imported from the Barnaul plant and the Barnaul ammo was GENERALLY better than the Tula factory ammo. The difference was usually seen on the headstamp.

6) DONT expect good accuracy from the steel cased ammo (unless it's Hornady). Yes you can occasionally get a sub MOA 3-shot group with the steel cased ammo, but you won't do it consistently. More than likely it's going to be a 3-5 MOA group @ 100 yds.

7) THE COST of the steel cased ammo will MORE than pay off in terms of money savings, IF it runs well in your AR. You can easily buy 2-3 barrels and extractors with the savings you'll get over a few cases of steel cased ammo (that is if you shoot enough).

8) IT IS DIRTY DIRTY DIRTY ammo! Be prepared to CLEAN your AR afterward like a mofo!!! Easier clean up will occur if you use a plated, or specially treated bolt carrier group that has a slick surface. Frog lube has also worked well for me concerning clean up as long as it has been applied properly beforehand, and has had a chance to soak in to the metal surfaces.

9) it is HARD to beat the value of steel cased ammo if you're doing a lot of blasting, and up close weapons manipulation and training. Accuracy at 25 yds and in is a non issue when doing snaps and rapid strings of fire (again, if YOUR rifle will function with it).

Me personally, I will NOT run it through a precision rifle/barrel. Those can be a LOT more costly, and it just seems a waste to prematurely wear out a precision rig (plus I absolutely HATE the added cleanup requirements from the dirty ammo).

The tests I did a few years back were certainly interesting. The S&W M&P 15T ran IN EXCESS of 1,000 rounds Wolf or Tula (can't remember which off the top of my head). At the 1,000 mark I switched over to som ZINC plated steel cased ammo (silver bear, made at the Barnaul plant). I ran an additional 60 rounds through the Smith, and although it never did choke (I called it quits on the reliability/ammo test), it was definitely getting sluggish. The zinc plated steel is still dirty, but it's got a slicker surface, so it seems to run longer without issues.

The Delton ran over 400 rounds before it choked, but it was a non lined chamber and barrel. The Smith had a melonite treated barrel which I believe added to the reliability and wear resistance that was demonstrated. Even after excess of 1,000 rounds of steel cased ammo and a total of close to 10,000 rounds down the tube, the smith still holds sub MOA groups with quality ammunition.

Man....
My fingers are tired from typing all of this out on my phone.

 

[11Charlie]

I'm surprised at how many people are putting thought into this!! The stuff is crap!!! I have some in my safe if someone likes it that much I'll sell it in a heart beat!!

 

[DuneHopper]

Never saw any issues use it for and hour plinking spend 3 cleaning it is the trade off.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I shot one round of it once. It started a forest fire and permanently magnetized my rifle so my compass didn't work any more and I got lost and died.
just not worth it

 

[Boboclown]

I'm surprised at how many people are putting thought into this!! The stuff is crap!!! I have some in my safe if someone likes it that much I'll sell it in a heart beat!!

Steel=SKS or AK. Brass=AR. The AK was designed around steel cased ammo (ask what happened when I tried drilling into a Polish stock, and it wasn't even from the military factory!), the AR was not. But it is cheaper and you can easily afford a second barrel, ammo, and extractors.

My wasr likes Monarch (which is basically rebranded Barnaul ammo), but tula is absolute sh!t through it. Plus I refuse to ever get any poly coated ammo after I found some having rust (NEVER had rust on lacquer coated ammo).

 

[MrMillspecer]

Thanks for the clarification dizzyJ. I agree with the lining as well , especially after your testing. A reason mine are chrome lined except for the white oak. That's another thing some say is not nessary but I will pay the extra for. The Delton was .556 correct ? The first one that stuck seemed glued in there. But it's been some time. Was your DD a middy ? Mine fires the Herters fine, but only on occasion.

Do you remember if it was poly coated ammo ?

 

[DizzyJ]

I shot one round of it once. It started a forest fire and permanently magnetized my rifle so my compass didn't work any more and I got lost and died.
just not worth it

Dude... You owe me a new screen!

 

[DizzyJ]

I'm surprised at how many people are putting thought into this!! The stuff is crap!!! I have some in my safe if someone likes it that much I'll sell it in a heart beat!!

If the price is right

 

[DizzyJ]

I'm surprised at how many people are putting thought into this!! The stuff is crap!!! I have some in my safe if someone likes it that much I'll sell it in a heart beat!!

I wanted to sort through what was true and what was myth, so I did my own testing.

 

[DizzyJ]

Thanks for the clarification dizzyJ. I agree with the lining as well , especially after your testing. A reason mine are chrome lined except for the white oak. That's another thing some say is not nessary but I will pay the extra for. The Delton was .556 correct ? The first one that stuck seemed glued in there. But it's been some time. Was your DD a middy ? Mine fires the Herters fine, but only on occasion.

Do you remember if it was poly coated ammo ?

The Delton was 5.56, DD was a middy.

I have shot laquer cased ammo, but the tests were done with poly.

 

[Boboclown]

3) Steel cased ammo is fairly underpowered compared to its brass counterparts. This also contributes to reliability issues in properly sized gas ports vs over gassed guns (see above).

ARs were never meant for steel ammo, part of it being underpowered is the gas that would normally not get past the brass after it expands goes into pushing that bullet through, not so with steel... There is more to it, but tbh steel is better for rounds designed around steel to begin with. Thinking they (except tula) do a better job of making 7.62x39 and 5.45 than they do .223/5.56.

Tight chambers will cause issues. The steel cases certainly do expand, but possibly not as much as brass. Therefore you don't have as good of a seal, AND the powder is dirty as crap. The combination plays havoc on guns with tighter chamber tolerances.

It doesn't expand like brass when firing. Leaving it in a hot chamber though? It WILL expand more than it would if you were to just shoot it, so it will cause issue from that. Thermal expansion is fun.

 

[DizzyJ]

ARs were never meant for steel ammo, part of it being underpowered is the gas that would normally not get past the brass after it expands goes into pushing that bullet through, not so with steel... There is more to it, but tbh steel is better for rounds designed around steel to begin with. Thinking they (except tula) do a better job of making 7.62x39 and 5.45 than they do .223/5.56.

It doesn't expand like brass when firing. Leaving it in a hot chamber though? It WILL expand more than it would if you were to just shoot it, so it will cause issue from that. Thermal expansion is fun.

I don't have the heat coefficient/expansion of brass vs steel memorized off the top of my head. It didn't stick (imho) because it was steel, I believe it stuck because it was dirty.

I do however have plenty of chemistry and physics under my belt. I definitely understand the concept.

 

[MrMillspecer]

The Delton was 5.56, DD was a middy.

I have shot laquer cased ammo, but the tests were done with poly.

From what I remember it seemed like your chamber was really gunked up on the Delton. Once one stuck it was all downhill.

A thousand rounds of cheap ammo is a respectable number in my book. And the melonite treatment seems well worth it. You can trust that worn out Smith

 

[DizzyJ]

From what I remember it seemed like your chamber was really gunked up on the Delton. Once one stuck it was all downhill.

A thousand rounds of cheap ammo is a respectable number in my book. And the melonite treatment seems well worth it. You can trust that worn out Smith

Indeed. I'm a believer.

 

[Boboclown]

I don't have the heat coefficient/expansion of brass vs steel memorized off the top of my head. It didn't stick (imho) because it was steel, I believe it stuck because it was dirty.

I do however have plenty of chemistry and physics under my belt. I definitely understand the concept.

Expanded just enough for it to get stuck, steel is dirty and those AR chambers don't help it.

Had to remove some stuck brass after people switched from steel to brass while at the range. Certainly not fun when you can't just throw the cleaning rod down like you would with an AK (didn't have an AK at the time). Try explaining the expansion idea to them.

From what I remember it seemed like your chamber was really gunked up on the Delton. Once one stuck it was all downhill.

A thousand rounds of cheap ammo is a respectable number in my book. And the melonite treatment seems well worth it. You can trust that worn out Smith

Yeah... Should have seen how dirty my AK was after the last range trip. Coated carbon on my hand just removing the cover, and some of it even got on my cheek while shooting it. Steel ammo is just that dirty and gassy. Its pretty much the reason for steel ammo have extraction problems on AR, people blamed the lacquer for supposedly melting but polymer coated steel ammo does the same thing. Its why I keep steel to rifles made for it, and brass for everything else.

Of course a stuck case isn't downhill for my AK, I can just toss the cleaning rod down to get it out.

 

[MrMillspecer]

I don't have the heat coefficient/expansion of brass vs steel memorized off the top of my head. It didn't stick (imho) because it was steel, I believe it stuck because it was dirty.

I do however have plenty of chemistry and physics under my belt. I definitely understand the concept.

I still think the coating had something to do with the sticking also. And ya real dirty stuff.

 

[Boboclown]

Of the two coatings, the polymer one would be the one likely to melt. The lacquer melting started with people shooting it out of their ARs and not realizing steel case ammo is just THAT dirty. Some would shoot brass after shooting the steel ammo, and since the chamber was fouled to hell the expanded brass would get stuck on the fouling. Before then it was mostly the AK crowd shooting steel ammo. Funny how the myth started with ARs.

After the complaints they started making the poly coated steel cases, which did the same thing. Only now you add sh!tty corrosion resistance to the mix (poly coated ammo will rust easier than lacquer, then again I never saw lacquer coated ammo rust). And a coating that may actually melt.

 

[MrMillspecer]

Expanded just enough for it to get stuck, steel is dirty and those AR chambers don't help it.

Had to remove some stuck brass after people switched from steel to brass while at the range. Certainly not fun when you can't just throw the cleaning rod down like you would with an AK (didn't have an AK at the time). Try explaining the expansion idea to them.


Yeah... Should have seen how dirty my AK was after the last range trip. Coated carbon on my hand just removing the cover, and some of it even got on my cheek while shooting it. Steel ammo is just that dirty and gassy. Its pretty much the reason for steel ammo have extraction problems on AR, people blamed the lacquer for supposedly melting but polymer coated steel ammo does the same thing. Its why I keep steel to rifles made for it, and brass for everything else.

Of course a stuck case isn't downhill for my AK, I can just toss the cleaning rod down to get it out.

I will keep using it in my ARs. Like was said you won't practice for any cheaper and the accuracy isn't that bad for trigger time or training. I have had zero problems with it in well over 2k rounds fired in normal use. It's just dirty. I use the 62 grain hollow points mostly also. A little better on the accuracy for my ARs. And it's Herters brand.