The "Do Nothing" Crowd

[No_Regerts]

Do you guys ever listen to some of the complete BS people spout about hunting rifles and cartridges? It makes you wonder if they have ever actually gone out and done anything because no one with any real experience would say that stuff.

I really think there is a "do nothing" crowd and there a surprising number of them working in gun stores. I was at a store today and a guy asked a guy behind the counter about which hunting cartridge to choose in his new rifle.

Guy says, "the most popular hunting cartridges are the 308, 300 win mag and 338 win mag". I start laughing and dude looks at me dirty. I look at the customer and tell him to go look at the ammo counter and see what cartridges are the most represented and that should answer his question. I tell him I bet it will be 30-06, 270, 7mm Rem Mag.

Customer comes back and says that my 3 outnumber the gun counter guys 3 by almost 3 to 1 and decides the 30-06 gives him the most options. Gun store clerk says, "the 308 is way more popular because of its military origin, accuracy potential and higher velocity".

I laughed again. Clerk looks pissed again. I say first of all, the 30-06 was a military cartridge 50 years before 7.62x51/308 came around. As far as accuracy, I'll give him that one because on average its probably true and Im sure recoil tolerance has a bit to do with it, not just some magic design. And third, how does a case that is 12 millimeters (7.62x63) longer with more powder capacity, shooting the same bullet result in LESS velocity?

Guy just looks at me like I'm stupid. I shake my head and walk away.

Same kind of guy that can never answer the age old question, "how does it shoot?"

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[blackadder]

No doubt he was trying to sell a more expensive rifle. 300wm and 338lapua tend to come in very expensive packages.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

.338Lapua would be great for those little bitty Blacktail's on the West side! No dressing or butchering, just wring them over a bowl and microwave!

And, I'm with you! I have heard them spout their contradictory BS! It's perfectly clear that these guys have no concern or respect for their customers! I just walk away. Sad thing is that good, responsible and helpful staff is tarred with the same brush as these losers!

 

[Just Jim]

The 06 and 308 are military cartridges that have a 147 grain bullet and both do 2800fps so basically they are the same round with that weight bullet. The 06 does better with heavy bullets because of greater case capacity. When it comes to which 30 caliber is best it depends on what you hunt, 300 mag for elk and the rest of the 30 cals are good for deer. Except the 30 carbine and it's good for small game.

Lyman number 47 reloading manual gives cartridges and velocities and what game they are suitable for. Then it becomes what rifle fits the hunter and what scope fits the rifle. If you can hit where you aim just about any combination works but if you can't hit the tendency seems to buy a bigger gun

 

[No_Regerts]

The 3006 will do 3000fps easy with a 150ge bullet. Do it all the time. It will do 2800fps with a 180gr bullet. The 308 wont.

 

[Just Jim]

The 3006 will do 3000fps easy with a 150ge bullet. Do it all the time. It will do 2800fps with a 180gr bullet. The 308 wont.

Agreed, you can load up the 06 but ammo manufacturers don't because of too many old guns out there. If I want more velocity out of 30 cal I would use a 300 mag if I didn't reload. A lot of it depends on what I am hunting and where I am hunting. I have killed deer in eastern oregon with a 308 but I like the performance of the 270 better on the long shots. I have killed coast deer with both 06 and 308 , both are about the same in knock down. I shot a deer with a 30 30 and 150 grain bullet and won't do that again.

 

[Joe13]

I've seen and heard these no practical knowledge type at gun counters.

Let me play devils advocate for a min though.


1. Shooting is a VERY expensive hobby/sport/lifestyle.

2. Those counter guys are making maybe $12-16/hour.

3. How many of those counter guys can afford to shoot much in the way of variety on that kind of income?


In Conclusion, until gun counter guys get paid $75k+ year (fat chance) then they will continue to be the lower end of the barrel as far as knowledge. Curts and some small businesses (I think those shops are full of helpfulls because they want the employee discounts), are the few exceptions.

 

[Just Jim]

I've seen and heard these no practical knowledge type at gun counters.

Let me play devils advocate for a min though.


1. Shooting is a VERY expensive hobby/sport/lifestyle.

2. Those counter guys are making maybe $12-16/hour.

3. How many of those counter guys can afford to shoot much in the way of variety on that kind of income?


In Conclusion, until gun counter guys get paid $75k+ year (fat chance) then they will continue to be the lower end of the barrel as far as knowledge. Curts and some small businesses (I think those shops are full of helpfulls because they want the employee discounts), are the few exceptions.

One of the very best gunsmiths in Oregon and he runs his own store counter is Jeff Hutchins. He is an avid hunter and takes time every year to hunt. If he says anything about ammo or hunting I would believe him because he is experienced and honest. He may not have the big money but he has killed more than most of the big money guys have and he knows what works.

 

[blackadder]

I don't have lots of money to spend on guns, but I am able to do research. Its not hard to see that generalizations regarding a firearm or caliber should be avoided (ie the 45cal 1911 is the best handgun known to man). As much as I love the 45cal 1911, there are other reliable pistols and pistol calibers. I think the issue is not as much personal ownership of a wide range of firearms and calibers. It lies it the conviction that they have the ultimate knowledge regarding firearms and cannot learn more because they already know it.
Edit to add there are also those that actually do know what they are talking about. Its not too hard to separate the BS bluster from the real deal usually.

 

[Just Jim]

A lot of guns out there and a number of calibers so not many people have had experience with most of them. I value opinions from those with experience with the caliber or the gun and have tested it. After that it's all about what gun or caliber fits the shooter and it's the shooter that decides that.

 

[No_Regerts]

I understand its hard to know everything about anything. Just dont make it out to someone that you do. Youll either warp some layman's mind or cause someone to laugh at you.

 

[Just Jim]

It's like everything else, what opinion you give is either personal experience or what you have read. I value experience far more because people's reading comprehension varies. Oh, and I like the 1911 for a carry semi auto.

 

[Just Jim]

I'd bet the 30-30 Win has dropped more game than those three put together.

Ya I here that one a lot or they say the 22lr has killed more deer than any other caliber. My point is if you are a hunter and you want to hit further out you use a better caliber. A clean kill at longer distance normally takes a better gun than a lever action 30 30 in the hands of the average man.

 

[Just Jim]

Western oregon deer hunt and walked up on a clearing to see a nice buck. First time I hunted with the 94 win 30 30 but used 150 grain flat point. Deer broadside at about 40 yards and I shot at the heart lung area just. First shot the deer just shuddered then took a step so lever in another round and shot again only to watch the deer run off.

Tracked it about eighty yards into the brush and found it dead with both bullet holes about an inch apart. Never had any other caliber not bring the deer down right away. Shot bigger deer in eastern oregon and the 308 and 270 anchor them immediately.

 

[No_Regerts]

Western oregon deer hunt and walked up on a clearing to see a nice buck. First time I hunted with the 94 win 30 30 but used 150 grain flat point. Deer broadside at about 40 yards and I shot at the heart lung area just. First shot the deer just shuddered then took a step so lever in another round and shot again only to watch the deer run off.

Tracked it about eighty yards into the brush and found it dead with both bullet holes about an inch apart. Never had any other caliber not bring the deer down right away. Shot bigger deer in eastern oregon and the 308 and 270 anchor them immediately.

In the eye next time !

 

[Unka-Boo]

Having worked the hunter sight in @ TCGC the past three years....I would say the most popular that I saw went like this:
30-06
7mm Mag
300 Mag
270
308

"oddballs" that I've seen:
256 Weatherby Mag
416 Rigby ( for deer season!!! )
270 Weatherby Mag

and your smattering of 243, 25-06, 338 Mag and 35Whelen

 

[Just Jim]

Never want to make an animal suffer, heart shot brings them right down and they don't walk off just wounded.

 

[Oathkeeper1775]

The point in life when a customer knows more about firearms than the guys at the counter do; being able to quickly-smell BS would not be possible if it were not for all the BS peddlers....

Congrats Jim, the BS peddlers trained you well.

The guys at the gun counters who still know more than me seem to have a problem LISTENING TO ME.

I went into one shop looking for a NIB youth .22LR (particularly a Savage Rascal), the J.A. puts a used model 60 on the counter...when asked if he was kidding me, he turned to get a 10/22......

About Face, Forward March!

 

[Oathkeeper1775]

I'd bet the 30-30 Win has dropped more game than those three put together.

Yup, the black/white photographs of all the big game, game birds, and fish both my grandfathers brought home puts my take home meat to shame!

Wool, leather, rubber, and cotton.....no gortex, no fancy guns, no range finders, no fancy rods, or reels, just results.

 

[filsonhand]

OK...that got me rolling, a 416 rigby for deer
Uhhhh. Ya I like to use a 50 BMG for sage rats... It takes all kinds, I guess