SIG P-320, redux...

[WillametteWill]

What this guy really wants is to express his very flawed opinion without being refuted or countered with objective facts contrary to his opinion. He is like a wrestler that has chosen to enter the arena, on the condition that only he may throw punches. I think I've mentioned it earlier in this thread, but it really is rooted in the same mentality that drives anti-2A people.

@1775usmc has an opinion that comes from his personal experience of owning 320s and has made a decision on his use of the firearm. Complete respect for that.

@lucusloc and others, continue to lay out fact after fact showing why the "this gun fires by itself" frenzy has nowhere been proven and actually been discredited time after time after time. We have both shown the danger to all SF guns based on the lawsuits and the precedents being set that extend well beyond Sig. What we have seen is multiple holster advisories, huge gaps around triggers, departments that have actually found the gun that went off by itself was actually due to another cause (THE OP for this thread actually)...yet we have the flawed opinion?

Since our opinions are flawed, please post the video that has been used in court to show the 320 fires without the trigger being pulled.

 

[lucusloc]

Since our opinions are flawed, please post the video that has been used in court to show the 320 fires without the trigger being pulled.

The standard is not even that high. Show me some guy in a garage with a repeatable malfunction. Just show how it could be done. If it's a QC issue show a nasty sear surface that creeps the sear up. If it is a sticky transfer bar that "pulls" the trigger as the slide as the slide wobbles on the rails show that. Just show something that can be replicated and repeated. That will be enough to bring to Sig and demand they "do something!"

(and before people jump on these examples, I do not think either of these is actually possible, regardless of how horrendous their QC actually is. For example you could probably machine actual steps into the sear surface and it would not walk, the sear spring it just too strong.)

But until we can demonstrate a failure there is nothing we can demand Sig do. "Just fix something!" is not actually an actionable request. That is the entire problem with the current kerfuffle; there are demands being made of Sig that are totally unfulfillable. Sig cannot comply with the request even if they wanted to. Nothing yet has been identified that needs fixing, so asking them to do so is completely unreasonable.

And even the "QC issues" that have been identified were apparently immediately resolved by Sig when they were made aware of it. They had one reported issue of a bad spring on the striker safety that was causing reset issues. This was not enough to get the gun to "fire on its own" and is arguable if it would have let the gun fire on its own even under common adverse conditions. The striker safety works in conjunction with all the other internal safeties as a redundant whole, so the loss of any single part does not make the gun unsafe. If we find this to be a common failure then we can ask Sig to check their QC as a whole, but one example does not a pattern make (or does no one here watch School of the American Rifle?). Every single manufacturer out there has one-off failures. Some of those failures are truly unsafe. This was not even one of those.

But that is not stopping people from holding Sig to an unreasonable standard. Being demanded to identify and fix an error that may not even be there is (again) not a reasonable demand.

Now if everyone were demanding they fix their PR department, not the gun, that would be a different discussion entirely. . .

 

[1775usmc]

What this guy really wants is to express his very flawed opinion without being refuted or countered with objective facts contrary to his opinion. He is like a wrestler that has chosen to enter the arena, on the condition that only he may throw punches. I think I've mentioned it earlier in this thread, but it really is rooted in the same mentality that drives anti-2A people.

Anti SIG = Anti gun.

You should work for their media department. Haha.

 

[lucusloc]

Anti SIG = Anti gun.

You should work for their media department. Haha.

But the legal attacks against Sig definitely look like they come from that direction.

• Tell me, do you have a problem that every single lawsuit against Sig comes from the same law firm? A law firm, I will remind everyone, that has a reputation for going after large companies based not on merit, but rather based on perceptions of public weakness that can be used to leverage said company out of seeking jury trial and into fast settlements.

• Tell me, do you have a problem that both cases that Sig lost were done so not on the basis of any identified defect, but rather on the basis that Sig did not include a manual safety in their design (a position which you also seem to have strong opinions on), and a design feature common to most striker fired pistols on the market today.

• Tell me, do you have a problem with anti-gun groups testing the waters on using the "Sig issue" to attack PLCAA?

These questions are based on facts, as it is a fact that all known lawsuits are brought by one law firm, and that Sig did not lose based on defects, and that there are anti-gun agitators that are starting to "weigh in" on the issue. You cant "opinion away" such facts, they are real and should be addressed. It is my opinion that it is worth defending Sig on these issue regardless of how you personally feel about Sig. These are issues that impact the gun industry as a whole, and if Sig falls there will be a next.

 

[1775usmc]

But the legal attacks against Sig definitely look like they come from that direction.

• Tell me, do you have a problem that every single lawsuit against Sig comes from the same law firm? A law firm, I will remind everyone, that has a reputation for going after large companies based not on merit, but rather based on perceptions of public weakness that can be used to leverage said company out of seeking jury trial and into fast settlements.

• Tell me, do you have a problem that both cases that Sig lost were done so not on the basis of any identified defect, but rather on the basis that Sig did not include a manual safety in their design (a position which you also seem to have strong opinions on), and a design feature common to most striker fired pistols on the market today.

• Tell me, do you have a problem with anti-gun groups testing the waters on using the "Sig issue" to attack PLCAA?

These questions are based on facts, as it is a fact that all known lawsuits are brought by one law firm, and that Sig did not lose based on defects, and that there are anti-gun agitators that are starting to "weigh in" on the issue. You cant "opinion away" such facts, they are real and should be addressed. It is my opinion that it is worth defending Sig on these issue regardless of how you personally feel about Sig. These are issues that impact the gun industry as a whole, and if Sig falls there will be a next.

All I can say is I love guns and hate modern SIGs. So what does that make me and the others who have my view point?

We all just became anti gun grifters. Might as well start voting blue cause I hate the P320….. lol.

 

[lucusloc]

All I can say is I love guns and hate modern SIGs. So what does that make me and the others who have my view point?

We all just became anti gun grifters. Might as well start voting blue cause I hate the P320….. lol.

I wasn't asking about your general opinion (we all know what that is). I was asking your opinion on these specific points, of which you have elucidated on a few times before in a more general manner to bash Sig. But the specific points mentioned, it seems to me, bear some small amount of clarification so that the general audience can understand your position without having to make assumptions as the conversation continues.

 

[Koda]

All I can say is I love guns and hate modern SIGs. So what does that make me and the others who have my view point?

We all just became anti gun grifters. Might as well start voting blue cause I hate the P320….. lol.

I think the issue here is your not separating your bias against Sig with just the subject of if its defective.
Literally everyone here has respected your opinion about sig, and stated so many times over and over again.

Is the gun defective?

Countless well presented facts have been laid out showing that not one single piece of evidence has proven the 320s are defective.
Not one single piece of evidence has been presented, yet, that the 320s are defective.


The entire subject is this simple:
Is the gun defective and if so what is the evidence?

 

[Hotdog 7]

This is what the people dying on the hill of defending Sig for the P320's crappy design look like.

 

[1775usmc]

I think the issue here is your not separating your bias against Sig with just the subject of if its defective.
Literally everyone here has respected your opinion about sig, and stated so many times over and over again.

Is the gun defective?

Countless well presented facts have been laid out showing that not one single piece of evidence has proven the 320s are defective.
Not one single piece of evidence has been presented, yet, that the 320s are defective.


The entire subject is this simple:
Is the gun defective and if so what is the evidence?

There's plenty of doubt to solidify my personal opinion. Videos, etc. I don't really care if the siggers get mad and say I'm spreading misinformation and blah blah blah. Sig spread just as much misinformation when the drop issue first took place. It isn't my responsibility to hold up SIG and repair their reputation. That's their responsibility which they are doing extremely poorly. They have done the damage themselves. Just like @lucusloc explained in an earlier post very well. They are on damage control. When they came out and basically accused anyone who felt or viewed their platform as unsafe as anti gun they pissed a lot of people off. Even more people turned on them. People heavily involved in the gun community.

I know I don't have "facts" in the eyes of the believers. That's ok. I won't change my opinion on the platform. SIG lost that trust a long time ago.

It's like the girl that cheats on you twice and then promises she will never do it again. You just have to believe her.

Pass.

 

[WillametteWill]

All I can say is I love guns and hate modern SIGs. So what does that make me and the others who have my view point?

We all just became anti gun grifters. Might as well start voting blue cause I hate the P320….. lol.

Come on my keyboard friend, you know better than that. We are good with you hating Sig all you want. We (I shouldn't put words in @lucusloc 's and others' keyboards) are simply saying, as gun people, at the moment, until the aforementioned video of a court accepted, Sig repeatable failure is presented as evidence, not for monetized clicks like many are out there doing, these videos and lawsuits are damaging the firearms industry and our 2A cause.

IF (That's a big if) that type of proof shows up, I'll say go after Sig and let everyone else (i.e., gun companies) off the hook. As @lucusloc has said, you can't fix a problem NO ONE can identify (Which kinda indicates it might not be a problem). If a problem is identified, Sig should fix the issue (with a recall IMHO, not a VUP).

 

[Hotdog 7]

Come on my keyboard friend, you know better than that. We are good with you hating Sig all you want. We (I shouldn't put words in @lucusloc 's and others' keyboards) are simply saying, as gun people, at the moment, until the aforementioned video of a court accepted, Sig repeatable failure is presented as evidence, not for monetized clicks like many are out there doing, these videos and lawsuits are damaging the firearms industry and our 2A cause.

IF (That's a big if) that type of proof shows up, I'll say go after Sig and let everyone else (i.e., gun companies) off the hook. As @lucusloc has said, you can't fix a problem NO ONE can identify (Which kinda indicates it might not be a problem). If a problem is identified, Sig should fix the issue (with a recall IMHO, not a VUP).

Guay v. Sig Sauer (2022) had video admitted into evidence of a P320 discharging without a trigger pull. I've tried to find the video of the incident but I don't think its ever been released to the public. You would likely have to file some sort of records request with the District Court of New Hampshire to get a copy of the video.

 

[lucusloc]

I am going to get one for mine, before I dare carry it. But, if I do carry it, it's not gonna be with a light mounted, and for damn sure not gonna be in a plastic holster. Or, I may take it to a gun smith and have it set up with a manual safety. I'm kinda leaning toward the Glock trigger though.

This is why I get uppity about people advocating for a trigger dongle as a trigger safety. It really raises the hairs on the back of my neck.

If you are concerned about FOD in the holster pulling the trigger get the manual safety (or, better yet, get a better holster that protects the trigger better). A trigger dongle is an inertial drop safety, and is not designed as and does not prevent the trigger being pulled by an object.

Trigger dongles should only be installed if you think your use case warrants additional drop safety protection, not trigger pull protection.

A manual safety, on the other hand, does protect the trigger by preventing any action on the trigger from engaging the sear.

Please do not confuse the one for the other. They do completely different jobs. And while it is possible that a trigger dongle will accidentally prevent some kind of FOD trigger pull, last I checked it was considered a very bad idea to rely on -->accident<-- as any layer in a safety stack. If you are uncomfortable with a gun without a trigger dongle in some holster/configuration, you should still be uncomfortable with a gun in that same setup that has one. The trigger dongle should not be a factor you consider when it comes to trigger safety.

If FOD gets in your holster it will be up to pure random luck if the trigger dongle prevents a trigger pull. You might as well set up other "pure random luck" "safety features" like putting a bunch of Velcro around the trigger opening in the hops of catching FOD before it gets in there. Will that work sometimes? It probably will occasionally.

But it may also be a contributing factor in other situations that end badly.

The same goes for trigger dongles. They may prevent some pulls, but they also might contribute to others (by, say, giving that FOD just enough extra friction to pull rather than slip off). You don't know which end of the luck you will fall on, which is why relying on that luck as a layer in your safety stack is a bad idea.

This is the same kind of thinking that influences the Gamblers Fallacy; this time the luck will go my way, and this hand/dongle will prevent a bad outcome.

I am going to say it again; if you are uncomfortable with a setup without a trigger dongle, you should be exactly as uncomfortable with that setup with a trigger dongle. The only reason you should add a dongle to a design that does not have one is if you have some kind of expectation that drop safety issues are a heightened risk for you (maybe you work on multi-story scaffolding? I dunno, I struggle with a good example of this).

Trigger dongles are not trigger safeties, please do not conflate the two.

Yes I am gong to keep repeating this every time I see it (even if I catch it a bit late). It is that important.

 

[1911Fanatic]

This is why I get uppity about people advocating for a trigger dongle as a trigger safety. It really raises the hairs on the back of my neck.

If you are concerned about FOD in the holster pulling the trigger get the manual safety (or, better yet, get a better holster that protects the trigger better). A trigger dongle is an inertial drop safety, and is not designed as and does not prevent the trigger being pulled by an object.

Trigger dongles should only be installed if you think your use case warrants additional drop safety protection, not trigger pull protection.

A manual safety, on the other hand, does protect the trigger by preventing any action on the trigger from engaging the sear.

Please do not confuse the one for the other. They do completely different jobs. And while it is possible that a trigger dongle will accidentally prevent some kind of FOD trigger pull, last I checked it was considered a very bad idea to rely on -->accident<-- as any layer in a safety stack. If you are uncomfortable with a gun without a trigger dongle in some holster/configuration, you should still be uncomfortable with a gun in that same setup that has one. The trigger dongle should not be a factor you consider when it comes to trigger safety.

If FOD gets in your holster it will be up to pure random luck if the trigger dongle prevents a trigger pull. You might as well set up other "pure random luck" "safety features" like putting a bunch of Velcro around the trigger opening in the hops of catching FOD before it gets in there. Will that work sometimes? It probably will occasionally.

But it may also be a contributing factor in other situations that end badly.

The same goes for trigger dongles. They may prevent some pulls, but they also might contribute to others (by, say, giving that FOD just enough extra friction to pull rather than slip off). You don't know which end of the luck you will fall on, which is why relying on that luck as a layer in your safety stack is a bad idea.

This is the same kind of thinking that influences the Gamblers Fallacy; this time the luck will go my way, and this hand/dongle will prevent a bad outcome.

I am going to say it again; if you are uncomfortable with a setup without a trigger dongle, you should be exactly as uncomfortable with that setup with a trigger dongle. The only reason you should add a dongle to a design that does not have one is if you have some kind of expectation that drop safety issues are a heightened risk for you (maybe you work on multi-story scaffolding? I dunno, I struggle with a good example of this).

Trigger dongles are not trigger safeties, please do not conflate the two.

Yes I am gong to keep repeating this every time I see it (even if I catch it a bit late). It is that important.

Well, I think both might be warranted as I have balance issues and am prone to falls if I stand too long. I appreciate the perspective though. I may wind up trading it off at some point as well. But for now it's just a HD gun.

 

[lucusloc]

Guay v. Sig Sauer (2022) had video admitted into evidence of a P320 discharging without a trigger pull. I've tried to find the video of the incident but I don't think its ever been released to the public. You would likely have to file some sort of records request with the District Court of New Hampshire to get a copy of the video.

It's all hearsay until it can be analyzed. For starters I have lots of videos of the P320 going off. . . before the original drop issue was fixed. If it was, for example, the video from TFBTV then it is irrelevant. Sig admitted the fault, fixed it at cost to them and released a brand new P320 as a replacement.

As I have said before if someone can demonstrate a new issue in the new design I will be all over Sig to fix it. But it has been years now and no one has any evidence of such a failure. And the standards of proof are not even that high; just show it happening in some kind of controlled, explainable way, like like the video linked above. Your credentials or credibility don't even matter, as Sig will have some method they can repeat for themselves.

That is all it will take.

 

[Bobbygun]

It's like the girl that cheats on you twice and then promises she will never do it again. You just have to believe her.

And maybe I would, if she were super-super-super hot. Not ugly - like a Sig P320.

 

[lucusloc]

Well, I think both might be warranted as I have balance issues and am prone to falls if I stand too long. I appreciate the perspective though. I may wind up trading it off at some point as well. But for now it's just a HD gun.

I mean, falling over is a drop safety issue, so that tracks just fine. If it makes you more comfortable more drop safety devices don't actually hurt anything.

My caution is strictly referencing its use as a trigger pull safety. It isn't that, and for ever scenario you can come up with where a trigger dongle prevented an accidental trigger pull I can come up with one where it contributed. I get that some people just want to make the tingle in the back of their mind shut up, and this may do that. But it is still important to recognize that as the reason we might do something, not because the act is reasonable or logical.

And we certainly should not be spreading the idea that trigger dongles somehow protect the trigger, even accidentally, from accidental pulls. Their influence can go either way, and we really don't want people to have the wrong perceptions of what this safety device does. Other people can make the wrong decisions when they have the wrong perceptions.

 

[mhayd93]

@1775usmc has an opinion that comes from his personal experience of owning 320s and has made a decision on his use of the firearm. Complete respect for that.

@lucusloc and others, continue to lay out fact after fact showing why the "this gun fires by itself" frenzy has nowhere been proven and actually been discredited time after time after time. We have both shown the danger to all SF guns based on the lawsuits and the precedents being set that extend well beyond Sig. What we have seen is multiple holster advisories, huge gaps around triggers, departments that have actually found the gun that went off by itself was actually due to another cause (THE OP for this thread actually)...yet we have the flawed opinion?

Since our opinions are flawed, please post the video that has been used in court to show the 320 fires without the trigger being pulled.

To clarify here, my post was referring to 1775usmc.

 

[DirectDrive]

Guay v. Sig Sauer (2022) had video admitted into evidence of a P320 discharging without a trigger pull. I've tried to find the video of the incident but I don't think its ever been released to the public. You would likely have to file some sort of records request with the District Court of New Hampshire to get a copy of the video.

Guay vs. Sig Sauer, Inc. - Jury Trial verdict in favor of Sig Sauer / July 2022

 

[Kruel J]

and for ever scenario you can come up with where a trigger dongle prevented an accidental trigger pull I can come up with one where it contributed.

Haha. That's completely not true but ok. Keep preaching.

 

[1911Fanatic]

I mean, falling over is a drop safety issue, so that tracks just fine. If it makes you more comfortable more drop safety devices don't actually hurt anything.

My caution is strictly referencing its use as a trigger pull safety. It isn't that, and for ever scenario you can come up with where a trigger dongle prevented an accidental trigger pull I can come up with one where it contributed. I get that some people just want to make the tingle in the back of their mind shut up, and this may do that. But it is still important to recognize that as the reason we might do something, not because the act is reasonable or logical.

And we certainly should not be spreading the idea that trigger dongles somehow protect the trigger, even accidentally, from accidental pulls. Their influence can go either way, and we really don't want people to have the wrong perceptions of what this safety device does. Other people can make the wrong decisions when they have the wrong perceptions.

The only pistol that I feel totally safe carrying these days is a 1911, even a series 70 vs series 80 Colt doesn't worry me. All of my revolvers have transfer bars, but all but one is too big to discreetly carry. My Glock and Berettas are too big. The 1911's are nice and thin.