SIG P-320, redux...

[Dirty Cary]

I use my p320rx in a x-carry module, apex trigger kit, 21rd mags at the range and for my hd gun.
It is one of my favorite guns to shoot 15k rounds 0 malfunctions. But my carry gun has a thumb safety p938.
My preference is 1911, my p320 is my only striker fired out of 18 hand guns.

 

[1775usmc]

Yea, unlike people who come to threads, who TL;DR (or watch) articles, posts, and videos and then just barf headlines, don't acknowledge information that runs contrary to their carved in stone opinions, and misrepresent facts, not opinions, that several of us have put forth. At least @1775usmc reads stuff, posts relevant information (usually contrary to my line of thinking...which is great), and acknowledges others viewpoints (while throwing in a Sigs suck comment every now and then )

So yea, adults.

Some members might be less willing to donate and support the forum when they are having to weed through an important topic that several of us have pointed out is one that is not as much about Sigs, but a long game to make it so all SF guns are deemed "dangerous" by the courts. Yet when this has been brought up several times in various forums, most eloquently by @lucusloc , all we here is "Sigs suck"

Sorry you are not seeing this.

Gunna have to disagree once again. It's gun owners sh!tting on the P320 and hating the company. The end user is calling them out. Sure some lawyers are trying to make a pay day but at the end of the day the community or a subset of the community has a very strong opinion on the company and the guns they are currently producing. It's not anti-gun to hate a company. Even without facts. Sure it's a subjective view point. But that view point is built on a foundation. Whether that foundation is solid from your viewpoint will vary from mine. That's ok. But to call everyone kicking the P320 anti-gun or anti-SF platforms is a major reach.

I hate the P320. I also hate mechanical safeties on handguns and I am a firm believer in striker fired pistols (Not the P320).

Unless I misunderstood you.

Oh and for good measure… The POS320 is exactly that.

 

[lucusloc]

Ok cool. You know all.

I used the wrong terminology. Congrats. I shouldn't have said "safety" and I should have said Dongle… although it does prohibit certain contacts at certain angles from moving the trigger rearward. Even though that's not its intended purpose.

The same can't be said for the P320. In fact SIG probably should have done a little study on gravity and trigger weight. Oh wait…. They still say that was super "rare."

I am not spreading misinformation if that is what you mean. It is unsafe and unwise to rely on the inertial drop safety for trigger-press protection. Trying to say it is needed for this reason is false. The fact that it might prevent some edge-case trigger activation (despite such a case never being demonstrated in guns without it) is not an argument for every gun out there to have one. There are tons of striker fire guns out there without them;




What do all these companies know that you don't? They know if they have other internal drop safeties they don't need one on the trigger.

Are you going to start pissing on all the companies listed here because they will not implement a safety paradigm that isn't, or we just going to continue focusing on Sig because this isn't about facts but rather about cheap shots at a perceived easy target?

 

[1775usmc]

I am not spreading misinformation if that is what you mean. It is unsafe and unwise to rely on the inertial drop safety for trigger-press protection. Trying to say it is needed for this reason is false. The fact that it might prevent some edge-case trigger activation (despite such a case never being demonstrated in guns without it) is not an argument for every gun out there to have one. There are tons of striker fire guns out there without them;

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What do all these companies know that you don't? They know if they have other internal drop safeties they don't need one on the trigger.

Are you going to start pissing on all the companies listed here because they will not implement a safety paradigm that isn't, or we just going to continue focusing on Sig because this isn't about facts but rather about cheap shots at a perceived easy target?

And what are their trigger weight pulls compared to the P320? Take up? Etc. Those all factor in to it.

Not gunna start pissing on any of them. They aren't the P320.

Also never said it was mandatory. Just an extra layer or protection. Especially for short/light triggers.

 

[Kruel J]

I'd bet anyone a cup of coffee that a trigger blade safety would solve the whole thing. The 320 has a fantastic trigger but IMO its too light to have no safeties.

Like carrying around a 1911 cocked but it has no lock.

 

[WillametteWill]

Gunna have to disagree once again. It's gun owners sh!tting on the P320 and hating the company. The end user is calling them out. Sure some lawyers are trying to make a pay day but at the end of the day the community or a subset of the community has a very strong opinion on the company and the guns they are currently producing. It's not anti-gun to hate a company. Even without facts. Sure it's a subjective view point. But that view point is built on a foundation. Whether that foundation is solid from your viewpoint will vary from mine. That's ok. But to call everyone kicking the P320 anti-gun or anti-SF platforms is a major reach.

Unless I misunderstood you.

Fair enough. What I'm going on, from the information as I understand it (and happy to admit if I'm wrong on this...but others have posted the same), is that the two lawsuits that Sig has lost, in both cases, it was found that the trigger was pulled. They were based on unsafe design in that, like several other gun manufacturers, they didn't have a trigger dongle. Which we all know means nothing if you pull the trigger. These are TERRIBLE cases for all SF gunmakers if I'm understanding the two losses.

I'm fine if someone doesn't like a gun or a gun company. As a rando dude on the interwebs, I have no standing to say someone is wrong for an opinion like this. Truth is, I really don't shoot Sigs very well; it's why I don't own any. Myself and some others here see this as a long game by the Antis, who are using this current Sig situation as an opportunity.

And what are their trigger weight pulls compared to the P320?

I could not agree with you more on this. I think this could be an issue with Sigs and other guns, along with many that are modified by their owners. I've attended numerous classes where people have carry guns with (what I would consider) insanely light triggers and no other safety. Same page with you here my friend, and even agree Sig could possibly be more guilty than others with this.

And as @lucusloc , points out, Sig is far from alone with this style of trigger.

 

[TTSX]

I'd like to know how many people defending the 320 own AND carry one daily, and how many people attacking it have ever owned one or even shot it?

 

[WillametteWill]

I'd bet anyone a cup of coffee that a trigger blade safety would solve the whole thing. The 320 has a fantastic trigger but IMO its too light to have no safeties.

Like carrying around a 1911 cocked but it has no lock.

Very legitimate (I might even say adult ) perspective. Y'all have endured my "Why mechanical safeties are good" arguments for years, so I'm not going to insert (another) one here. I have used the 1911 reference many times. I know there is at least one study showing NDs are reduced by heavier triggers. Not a surprise.

 

[Kruel J]

Very legitimate (I might even say adult ) perspective. Y'all have endured my "Why mechanical safeties are good" arguments for years, so I'm not going to insert (another) one here. I have used the 1911 reference many times. I know there is at least one study showing NDs are reduced by heavier triggers. Not a surprise.

I actually said this months ago in another thread. I'm glad it passes your adult requirements.

 

[lucusloc]

And what are their trigger weight pulls compared to the P320? Take up? Etc. Those all factor in to it.

Not gunna start pissing on any of them. They aren't the P320.

Also never said it was mandatory. Just an extra layer or protection.

In every case listed here cases less than the Sig P320, though obviously I have not checked every other example out there, just the ones I listed. This is not unexpected, because Sig factory triggers are known to be higher than their competitors average nearly across the board. Their main rebuttal is their triggers are better (smother, less sloppy etc.).

The P320 lowest factory is 6.5

FN Five seven factory goes down to 4.4 lbs (lowest out of this bunch, as expected for FN).

As for the others:
Walther PDP lowest is 4.5
Khar PM/CM 9 lowest is to 6.0
The Arsenal Striker One lowest is 5.3

Can't find info on the CZ 100 but the 110 (also with no trigger dongle) goes to 4.5

At some point you just need to admit you are wrong and that trigger dongles are not appropriate trigger safeties. They are inertial drop safeties and are not intended to prevent trigger actuation by objects. Asserting that is a job they should be expected to do, even if only in edge cases, is bad and wrong. Giving people the idea that this is even an unintentional expectation of the device can get people hurt or killed.

 

[1775usmc]

Fair enough. What I'm going on, from the information as I understand it (and happy to admit if I'm wrong on this...but others have posted the same), is that the two lawsuits that Sig has lost, in both cases, it was found that the trigger was pulled. They were based on unsafe design in that, like several other gun manufacturers, they didn't have a trigger dongle. Which we all know means nothing if you pull the trigger. These are TERRIBLE cases for all SF gunmakers if I'm understanding the two losses.

I'm fine if someone doesn't like a gun or a gun company. As a rando dude on the interwebs, I have no standing to say someone is wrong for an opinion like this. Truth is, I really don't shoot Sigs very well; it's why I don't own any. Myself and some others here see this as a long game by the Antis, who are using this current Sig situation as an opportunity.


I could not agree with you more on this. I think this could be an issue with Sigs and other guns, along with many that are modified by their owners. I've attended numerous classes where people have carry guns with (what I would consider) insanely light triggers and no other safety. Same page with you here my friend, and even agree Sig could possibly be more guilty than others with this.

And as @lucusloc , points out, Sig is far from alone with this style of trigger.

The P320 may "mechanically" be safe. But with a super light trigger, no "dingle" or whatever, and huge gaps in duty holsters you're asking for trouble. That alone makes the gun unsafe in a duty capacity in my eyes.

I still stand firm that there is something wrong with the gun. Maybe not all of them but there are ticking time bombs floating around out there. Whether it's bad QC, worn out parts, broken springs, garbage tolerances, ect. That's my own personal opinion. Can I prove it… nope. Do I stand by it absolutely. I would rather see SIG come out and fix the gun, own their issues and make it safer. But if they wanna go down with the ship with their pride in tact be my guest. Who knows maybe they'll come out the other side totally fine. I won't be buying their products though. I'll stick with Glocks and M&Ps when it comes to striker fired handguns. I carry AIWB daily. I have to be able to trust my gun. And that is not something I have for the P320. Nor will I ever. My answer may be different if they handled themselves more professionally.

I'd carry nothing at all if the P320 was the only option. Luckily we live in a time where I am not forced with only one choice.

 

[1775usmc]

In every case listed here cases less than the Sig P320, though obviously I have not checked every other example out there, just the ones I listed. This is not unexpected, because Sig factory triggers are known to be higher than their competitors average nearly across the board. Their main rebuttal is their triggers are better (smother, less sloppy etc.).

The P320 lowest factory is 6.5

FN Five seven factory goes down to 4.4 lbs (lowest out of this bunch, as expected for FN).

As for the others:
Walther PDP lowest is 4.5
Khar PM/CM 9 lowest is to 6.0
The Arsenal Striker One lowest is 5.3

Can't find info on the CZ 100 but the 110 (also with no trigger dongle) goes to 4.5

At some point you just need to admit you are wrong and that trigger dongles are not appropriate trigger safeties. They are inertial drop safeties and are not intended to prevent trigger actuation by objects. Asserting that is a job they should be expected to do, even if only in edge cases, is bad and wrong. Giving people the idea that this is even an unintentional expectation of the device can get people hurt or killed.

Go back and read. I corrected my self and agreed that that was not their designed purpose. But to say the only purpose they can serve is for inertia is stupid. Something can be created for one purpose and still benefit you in other areas as well.

 

[lucusloc]

The P320 may "mechanically" be safe. But with a super light trigger, no "dingle" or whatever, and huge gaps in duty holsters you're asking for trouble. That alone makes the gun unsafe in a duty capacity in my eyes.

This is just a load of more misinformation. Sigs do not have a "super light trigger" by any means. They are slightly heavier than average from the factory. Glock has lighter factory triggers.

I still stand firm that there is something wrong with the gun. Maybe not all of them but there are ticking time bombs floating around out there. Whether it's bad QC, worn out parts, broken springs, garbage tolerances, ect. That's my own personal opinion. Can I prove it… nope. Do I stand by it absolutely. I would rather see SIG come out and fix the gun, own their issues and make it safer. But if they wanna go down with the ship with their pride in tact be my guest. Who knows maybe they'll come out the other side totally fine. I won't be buying their products though. I'll stick with Glocks and M&Ps when it comes to striker fired handguns. I carry AIWB daily. I have to be able to trust my gun. And that is not something I have for the P320. Nor will I ever. My answer may be different if they handled themselves more professionally.

I'd carry nothing at all if the P320 was the only option. Luckily we live in a time where I am not forced with only one choice.

Fix what exactly? Your opinion that they are "broken"? Apparently no amount of facts can fix that so

No one can fix a defect that has not been identified. No one can fix a defect that isn't there. If you want Sig to fix a defect please point a defect out.

It is totally fine to not like Sig. I don't personally like Glock, but I can admit they are perfectly fine and safe guns that lots of other people do like, and I can understand why. You are free to continue not liking Sigs all you want, but when you post misinformation about Sigs that is where you need to be told to stop doing that. Your misplaced opinions are not facts and should not be represented as such.

 

[1775usmc]

This is just a load of more misinformation. Sigs do not have a "super light trigger" by any means. They are slightly heavier than average from the factory. Glock has lighter factory triggers.


Fix what exactly? Your opinion that they are "broken"? Apparently no amount of facts can fix that so

No one can fix a defect that has not been identified. No one can fix a defect that isn't there. If you want Sig to fix a defect please point a defect out.

It is totally fine to not like Sig. I don't personally like Glock, but I can admit they are perfectly fine and safe guns that lots of other people do like, and I can understand why. You are free to continue not liking Sigs all you want, but when you post misinformation about Sigs that is where you need to be told to stop doing that. Your misplaced opinions are not facts and should not be represented as such.

Do you know what an opinion is? I'll continue to spread it. I don't care what you think. lol.

Kick rocks.

 

[lucusloc]

Do you know what an opinion is?

Kick rocks.

I know they are not facts. Things like factory trigger weights, the existence of internal striker safeties and if an actual defect has been identified to exists are not opinions, they are facts.

 

[1775usmc]

I know they are not facts. Things like factory trigger weights, the existence of internal striker safeties and if an actual defect has been identified to exists are not opinions, they are facts.

Cool. Again the P320 sucks. I don't care about your "facts."

 

[Pete F]

Yea that's not a thing when you're on duty. You need multiple levels of retention on that pistol for when you go hands on or when someone tries to defeat it and remove the weapon to hurt you or others.

That's OK, the Sig320 will go off in the holster and shoot the perpetrator in the foot.

 

[TTSX]

Cool. Again the P320 sucks. I don't care about your "facts."

Your facts don't care about my feelings

 

[1775usmc]

Your facts don't care about my feelings

Like someone's gunna bully me into thinking the P320 is safe. lol.

GTFO and take your gas lighting with you.

 

[mhayd93]

Like someone's gunna bully me into thinking the P320 is safe. lol.

GTFO and take your gas lighting with you.

Where did the Sig P320 touch you and how did it make you feel?