SBS, Shockwave/Tac-14 vs. bullpup

[The Heretic]

Length is an issue with self-defense/combat shotguns.

Maneuverability (e.g., inside building or even a car, etc.), ability to carry/store in a small package (pack, case, etc.), and even concealing it on your person - primarily length is a limiting factor.


The example above doesn't show a Shockwave/Tac-14, but a those are still at least 26" long and a bullpup can be shouldered where as the SW/T14 can't unless you lengthen them to about 30"+ with a pistol brace, at which point then they are as long or longer than a bullpup (Mossberg 500 bullpup is about 30" long with an 18" barrel).

But then so is size.

This:



Can be hidden under a coat by using a sling and keeping it under the off arm much better than this:



Or any other bullpup shotgun I have seen on the market.



Even the rare High Standard Model 10:

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[The Heretic]

I am not a shotgun person. I have a few, one self defense type explicitly for home defense, and others for SHTF hunting (over under combo shotgun/rifle).

For those concealing is not really something I am concerned about.

However, a 'truck gun' or something I have hidden in my commuter car, is something I have thought about. Besides having something more powerful than a pistol, I have thought about something like my PS90 in combination with my Five Seven as something that I could have as a just in case rifle/pistol combo for my GHB.

On the down side, while the pistol is concealable, a PS90 is harder to conceal, and would be best carried in a pack. I do have a GHB pack with a compartment for a rifle. It is a good combo, especially with the high ammo capacity, but not perfect.

I have for some time dismissed the SW/T14 type "firearms" as gimmicks when IMO a bullpup shotgun was better.

But I am considering getting a Shockwave because of the size - the ability to conceal it under a coat, the weight, the ability to just put it in a truck and not worry about it knocking around, and so on. E.G., when I want to go out on my property and I drive my truck to the area that is logged off to make sure nobody is messing around back there (stealing firewood, camping, etc.) - I have taken my defense shotgun, but it is bulky, not concealable and it makes it look like I am looking for trouble when I get out of the truck with it - whereas a Shockwave slung under my arm, maybe under a coat, is not as obvious.

Yes, I know it is illegal in most cases to conceal it like that, but on my own property I don't think I will be running into LEOs, and I could put it in a scabbard made for these 'firearms', and so on, easier than a bullpup, when I am likely to encounter a LEO.

 

[etrain16]

I like how compact the Shockwave and Tac-14 are, but the small size seems to me to be not much fun to shoot. I've never tried one though, maybe they're not that bad. If I were going to get one, I'd want a chance to go hands-on, not only for recoil/controlability, but also to see what a reasonable distance is to make a reliable shot.

Otherwise, I really like the bullpup idea if going compact.

 

[LuckySG]

I just ordered in a .410 Shockwave and will be going with the buyer after all the paperwork is complete to see how well she can run it. Depending on the spring, with 2 1/2" shells one extra might fit in the tube bringing it to 7.

 

[The Heretic]

I like how compact the Shockwave and Tac-14 are, but the small size seems to me to be not much fun to shoot. I've never tried one though, maybe they're not that bad. If I were going to get one, I'd want a chance to go hands-on, not only for recoil/controlability, but also to see what a reasonable distance is to make a reliable shot.

Otherwise, I really like the bullpup idea if going compact.

From what I have read, they are about what I would expect, a short range defensive weapon - 25 yards and less. One of the reasons I would choose the Mossberg over the Remington would be the ability to modify it to reliably use the lower recoil shorter 'mini' shells that would give more capacity and control.

Most self-defense would be in that short range, but then a person is definitely giving up dealing with longer range threats, which while much less likely, are possible. Either way, I am thinking that it would be nice to have the option and they are relatively inexpensive - especially compared to most of the bullpups which start about $1K and go up from there (you can still occasionally find the Mossberg bullpup for about $500, but they are a bit clunky and the trigger is not good - not bad for home defense) - although the KSG can be had for about $700 but I am still not sure about its reliability, even though they redesigned it.

 

[etrain16]

From what I have read, they are about what I would expect, a short range defensive weapon - 25 yards and less. One of the reasons I would choose the Mossberg over the Remington would be the ability to modify it to reliably use the lower recoil shorter 'mini' shells that would give more capacity and control.

Most self-defense would be in that short range, but then a person is definitely giving up dealing with longer range threats, which while much less likely, are possible. Either way, I am thinking that it would be nice to have the option and they are relatively inexpensive - especially compared to most of the bullpups which start about $1K and go up from there (you can still occasionally find the Mossberg bullpup for about $500, but they are a bit clunky and the trigger is not good - not bad for home defense) - although the KSG can be had for about $700 but I am still not sure about its reliability, even though they redesigned it.

Yeah, I recall the mod for any Mossberg to accept the Aguilla mini shells is pretty easy to install and fairly inexpensive. They only problem I've had is finding those darn mini shells in stock - anywhere. I do like the idea of them though, and in the Shockwave, they'd probably be fairly easy to handle.

 

[etrain16]

I just ordered in a .410 Shockwave and will be going with the buyer after all the paperwork is complete to see how well she can run it. Depending on the spring, with 2 1/2" shells one extra might fit in the tube bringing it to 7.

Hmm, now a Shockwave in .410 is certainly interesting...stop giving me ideas to spend my money!

 

[LuckySG]

Hmm, now a Shockwave in .410 is certainly interesting...stop giving me ideas to spend my money!

I have that problem when my eyes first open every morning. I am surrounded by all this stuff!

 

[Argonaut]

I love my TAC-14 Marine. Years ago we tested pistol grip shotguns and found them difficult to control and aim but the grip angle on the TAC has solved that issue for me. I installed a SIG magazine light and wherever that light is is the target. Use it every night to close up outside before I go to bed. I bought a great scabbard for it and it is so fast, I don't keep a shell in the chamber. Mine was expensive (stainless and nickle finish)........close to 800.00......but a standard parkerized (?) one is under 300 on sale. I use it like a flashlight at night.....with a little backup. This is the first new gun I have bought in years and I am very pleased with it.

 

[The Heretic]

I like the light. Can't find it on the SIG site.

I am thinking a very low profile laser mounted on the top of the receiver and a light up front, or a combo laser/light up front, either way keeping it low profile - would be about right for shooting with these. I like the concept of the 'center of mass' laser but I have read that the quality of LaserLyte is iffy. A regular laser would work as well I think; just knowing the general center of the pattern would be fine as long as you kept in mind the limits on distance. This is not a precision instrument, just a handy defensive weapon.

 

[The Heretic]

I watched on vid where the presenter was commenting not to change the raptor grip or to add a forearm vertical grip because the ATF letter for these is for the configuration that comes from the manufacturer and if you change it you might run afoul of the ATF.

Now normally I am paranoid when it comes to the ATF, and there may come a day when these shotguns are specifically banned/regulated by federal law or the ATF may change their mind somehow (maybe say they are not for "sporting purposes" like they did with some other shotguns), but the principle of how these are legal is fairly simple:

1) Can never have been a pistol, rifle or shotgun from the manufacturer.
2) Must be 26"+ OAL in any operational configuration (including any folded/collapsed configuration).
3) Cannot have a buttstock, but can have a pistol brace (which cannot be more than 13.5" LOP).

It is not a pistol, so putting a forearm grip on it that is perpendicular to the barrel is legal.

The OAL is key - the raptor/birds head rear grip is what gets the OAL of 26" with the 14" barrel. So a person could make the barrel longer and the rear grip shorter (e.g., pistol style grip) as long as doing so is done in such a way that the barrel length is permanent (e.g., a silver soldered muzzle device - not one that screws on/in).

Conversely, a person could make the barrel even shorter as long as the OAL is still 26"+ by something to the rear that makes the OAL 26"+ regardless of whether it is folded/collapsed - however, that 'something' cannot be a conventional buttstock; it would have to be a pistol 'brace' or something other than a buttstock.

IANAL and this is not 'legal advice'. YMMV. Do this at your own risk, but it is is my opinion that this would be legal and per ATF rules.

 

[The Heretic]

Also, I am given to understand that some states (e.g., California) consider these to be illegal and/or an SBS, so know the state laws if you travel with one (something I was considering).

 

[Stomper]

rifle pistol, shotgun, & a fighting knife... IMHO it's the minimum basis for any self/home defense/offense kit. A striking weapon and/or a good machete (slap-strike, cut, & chop) would also be good to have as well.


Although I have quite the fleet of combat shotguns (I have four... ) I've been contemplating a 590 Shockwave myself.

 

[The Heretic]

Yeah - it depends on context.

Whether a conventional stocked long gun or a bullpup - these are superior to a pistol, SBS or SBR when there is room to maneuver them and when you aren't concerned about what neighbors/LEOs/etc. might think of you carrying it.

But a person has to take other things into consideration. Maneuverability is one consideration. Full or partial 'concealing' is another.

Even in the boonies where I live, I don't want my neighbors to happen to see me carrying around a long gun doing the rounds or checking out a noise or going to the back acreage to check something out back there - but OTOH bear and cougar are often seen around here (bear have been within 50 feet of my house) and encountering trespassers on the back acreage is possible, so having a short inconspicuous shotgun has its appeal. I don't want to go to the back acreage with a large long gun to check out a strange truck being back there only to find out that it is one of the logging contractors that is supposed to be there (they are mostly done now, but may be doing some cleanup, and this winter or next, they will be replanting).

Also, working on the property, in a truck or tractor or dozer, it would be good to have a knock about shotgun that was 'handy'.

So I am thinking a Shockwave, probably in a scabbard, would be better than my home defense shotgun for most usages, and could double for home defense too.

 

[Stomper]

Yeah - it depends on context.

Whether a conventional stocked long gun or a bullpup - these are superior to a pistol, SBS or SBR when there is room to maneuver them and when you aren't concerned about what neighbors/LEOs/etc. might think of you carrying it.

But a person has to take other things into consideration. Maneuverability is one consideration. Full or partial 'concealing' is another.

Even in the boonies where I live, I don't want my neighbors to happen to see me carrying around a long gun doing the rounds or checking out a noise or going to the back acreage to check something out back there - but OTOH bear and cougar are often seen around here (bear have been within 50 feet of my house) and encountering trespassers on the back acreage is possible, so having a short inconspicuous shotgun has its appeal. I don't want to go to the back acreage with a large long gun to check out a strange truck being back there only to find out that it is one of the logging contractors that is supposed to be there (they are mostly done now, but may be doing some cleanup, and this winter or next, they will be replanting).

Also, working on the property, in a truck or tractor or dozer, it would be good to have a knock about shotgun that was 'handy'.

So I am thinking a Shockwave, probably in a scabbard, would be better than my home defense shotgun for most usages, and could double for home defense too.

For your stated purposes & conditions, I would use a Shockwave/TAC14 with 00-buck & slugs to augment a sidearm appropriate for bears (.357 & upwards), and the two-legged critters.

It'd be nice to have your geo/topographical problem. Suburban life (even medium density) is ... meh.

 

[The Heretic]

For your stated purposes & conditions, I would use a Shockwave/TAC14 with 00-buck & slugs to augment a sidearm appropriate for bears (.357 & upwards), and the two-legged critters.

It'd be nice to have your geo/topographical problem. Suburban life (even medium density) is ... meh.

It took 25+ years to get here, but now that I am here, I am thinking more and more that it is necessary for my survival from the sense that I don't think I would have been able to stand living in suburbia much longer. It is bad enough that I still have to commute into Portland every weekday. I.E., being able to come home to my simple house in the woods is more or less what keeps me sane.

Two more years (I hope) and then I retire. The plan then is to move even further out since I won't have to commute every day. Even if I don't fully retire, I may partially retire and work mostly from home - if my current employer doesn't like it then I can probably find someone else who would be happy to have my 30+ years of experience to help them when they are in a pinch - but I am betting that my current employer would want to hang onto my knowledge of what I currently work on.

 

[The Courier]

If you make your way to Dundee you can get some trigger time with my Shockwave, my experience with it so far points to being a 30yrd or less gun but thats with bird shot. I plan on buying a variety of buckshot to see what patterns best.

 

[The Heretic]

So I just put a couple shots thru it.

First one was 2 3/4" #4 duck/pheasant loads - high brass. Pretty stout, I shouldered it and got a good cheek weld with the arm brace, really noticed the recoil against my cheek - shoulder noticed it less.

Second was "Winchester Super Magnum" 00 buck 2 3/4" 12 pellets. Again, shouldered it and got a good cheek weld - a little more recoil than the duck load, again noticed it against my cheek. Shot a cardboard box at about 7 yards. Pattern was 7". I am going to extrapolate from that and from other reviews that the pattern expands one inch per yard.

Recoil is quite noticeable, not fun, but not horrible - but then I was shouldering it. Muzzle lift was not as bad as I expected, but I did use the strap. Some kind of porting or brake would probably help. I don't have any 3" loads so I will have to get some. I am thinking I will get the Aguila mini shells and the adapter too.

 

[The Heretic]

The Witness Protection Shotgun - A Novel Concept - The Mag Life

 

[ron]

I put wide skate board tape on my Shockwave grip. Love shooting the Mini's.
I buy the shells on line no problem. 12 Gauge ammo shotgun 1¾"
Had this green Crimson trace laser laying around. Stuck it on my Shockwave.
It holds 8 Mini's in the magazine.