Reaching out to non-gun people...

[Member 34319]

Sometimes I start the conversation off with a discussing about myself.

Then turn a switch and release the fact I'm a gun owner, and own one of those guns they want to get rid of.

I gauge their reaction.

I also like to ask if that small bit of information suddenly changed their mind about me, and why?

I listen usually more than talk. I like to let them try to explain themselves, as I would like them to allow me to do the same.

Too many times on the TV do these conversations go off the rails because neither side wants to listen.

I don't play "gotcha games" where I lead them into a corner with my questions so they feel coerced into answering them a certain way, that type of discussing is crap in my opinion. It doesn't change their mind one bit, and for the TV perspective, or group perspective, it only serves to make that person look like an idiot. Which, doesn't help change their mind, or alter their way of thinking.

I think it really has to do with knowing a bit more about the reasons why they want to ban guns, or what guns, and such. Then listening is a huge part. Then, not being the "from my cold dead hands" type helps a bit too.

Really, our culture has changed so much in as little as one generation. The gun culture has not. I myself have issues with some parts of the firearm culture that is refusing to change in any means. From the outside looking in, we look a lot like stubborn a holes refusing to do anything, sound familiar? Think of a certain political party lately!

Heck...

@AndyinEverson even you and I have had a disagreement on a subject, that didn't end in a positive manner, within our own group and culture there is much need for open ears and means to better our selves for the continuation of our gun culture.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I would disagree that it did not end in a positive manner since I at least would be willing to discuss that matter again with you...and I think that you are a approachable and reasonable person...So neener neener...

As for the rest of your post...thank you for sharing your insight...
Andy

 

[Joe13]

To illustrate @AndyinEverson frustration for non gun owners lack of understanding here is a pretty eye opening video.

Most non gun owners have literally no clue. Which is exactly how and why the media and anti politics work.

My favorite part is when he talks about calibers. Everyone agreed that the 30-06 was way to dangerous, but the "tiny wimpy 223" should be allowed.

I haven't watched your link yet but a plain ol 30-06 will go thru level 3 body armor and .223 will not.


Dunno if I'd want to take a hunting rifle to a gun fight but I'm sure some of the magnum loads would do the same without AP boolits

 

[Colts4me]

Well on a lighter note if beer is involved people may listen better.

Just opinion but what you are trying to do is sell an idea first and then a lifestyle. In my opinion you should look at this as sales and you should look the part of a sales man for the product you are selling. Then go places other than gun shows to sell, last weekend they had a sportsman' show at the fairgrounds that thousands went to that would never have gone to a gun show.

Put together a short video to play over and over to draw attention. Pamplets with information to remind them. Above all be very personable and make everyone you talk to feel important and full of fun.

 

[Colts4me]

I am going to add to what I just said, know by looking at them who to approach and not waste your time and resources. Profile if you want the best results because no matter what you say or do 30% won't agree. Again reach outside the gun community and bring them home.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I have done a few shows outside of a gun show or rendezvous type event...
I have set up at the Cabelas at Tulalip a time or two...and have set up at the Duck's unlimited event at Holiday Sports in Skagit , three years running....
At each event ...I have indeed talked to folks I wouldn't normally reach at a true "gun event"...and yeah using my skills as a "salesman" is a huge plus...
Thank you for your suggestions and thoughts Colts4me....
Andy

 

[Colts4me]

If you lead in with who you are its' a big deal because every human profiles by the job you do. Build you are a school teacher first in a conversation because they understand that, then move gently from what fun you are having to the subject you want to address.

Anyway this is just my opinion.

 

[moose]

I have done a few shows outside of a gun show or rendezvous type event...
I have set up at the Cabelas at Tulalip a time or two...and have set up at the Duck's unlimited event at Holiday Sports in Skagit , three years running....
At each event ...I have indeed talked to folks I wouldn't normally reach at a true "gun event"...and yeah using my skills as a "salesman" is a huge plus...
Thank you for your suggestions and thoughts Colts4me....
Andy

Perhaps you should consider more 'not-traditional non-gun' events. The pictures I've seen shared of your display of smoke poles fired by sparking rocks are considerable less threatening than a table covered with detachable magazines, bayonet lugs and other Tapco accessories.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I will and have considered that idea...

It is a paradox that folks will at times view my guns as less "Threatening" , "Dangerous" or "Deadly"...than a more modern gun...

There is no difference between one of my antique rifles and the latest AR15 made 2 minutes ago...both are made to place a projectile accurately on target...Both can lead to injury or death if misused...

When discussing my old guns this subject often comes up and when I use my above quote about "No difference..." It can really get someone to thinking or just have them stand there dumbfounded....
Andy

 

[Member 34319]

I haven't watched your link yet but a plain ol 30-06 will go thru level 3 body armor and .223 will not.


Dunno if I'd want to take a hunting rifle to a gun fight but I'm sure some of the magnum loads would do the same without AP boolits

That point is illustrated in this video. There is a conversation where he ignores the guns for one gentleman and strictly discussed the rounds you do or don't need based off size alone. He demonstrated that when asked about the appearance alone that most people said the hunting rifle is fine and acceptable compared to the uzi next to it chambered in 22lr. Then when looking at the cartridges alone, they all said that no one needs the larger scarier 30-06, but the smaller 223 or tiny 22lr should be allowed.

Basically this video demonstrates that non gun owners use the same judgement to guns as they would a book cover, as they literally have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[moose]

I will and have considered that idea...

It is a paradox that folks will at times view my guns as less "Threatening" , "Dangerous" or "Deadly"...than a more modern gun...

There is no difference between one of my antique rifles and the latest AR15 made 2 minutes ago...both are made to place a projectile accurately on target...Both can lead to injury or death if misused...

When discussing my old guns this subject often comes up and when I use my above quote about "No difference..." It can really get someone to thinking or just have them stand there dumbfounded....
Andy

It is perception. You ponder rationally how there is no difference till you get a headache. Even a Fudd might argue a difference between your EBR in 5.56x45 and his BAR in 300 WinMag.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

There ya go...both are semi-automatic rifles...no difference , but perception...
Which is one of the many reason why I wish someone would talk some "gunsense" to non-gun people...
Andy

 

[Colts4me]

Only short sound bites work now and they have to be lead with fun and joy along with making the listener feel important. Talking is like posting on the net, if you talk too much folks won't listen. Short, sweet and too the point no longer than a phone text.

 

[WWShooter]

I will and have considered that idea...

It is a paradox that folks will at times view my guns as less "Threatening" , "Dangerous" or "Deadly"...than a more modern gun...

There is no difference between one of my antique rifles and the latest AR15 made 2 minutes ago...both are made to place a projectile accurately on target...Both can lead to injury or death if misused...

When discussing my old guns this subject often comes up and when I use my above quote about "No difference..." It can really get someone to thinking or just have them stand there dumbfounded....
Andy

With respect, your rifles are less threatening than modern semi-automatic rifles with high capacity magazines.

For example, tell me how long it would take you to shoot 31 people using your rifles; now tell me how long it would take with an AR-15 and, say, 2 or 3 high capacity magazines?

Refusing to acknowledge that difference creates an immediate dissonance with any moderately knowledgeable non-2A advocate you might talk to. Unless and until gun owners acknowledge that an AR-15 is a lot more deadly than one of your rifles - or even a bolt action, the conversation goes nowhere because there's an instant credibility gap. The 2A advocate needs to acknowledge the massive volume of fire power inherent in, for example, an AR-15, and then explain why such firearms in civilian hands make sense and explain how semi-automatic rifles with high capacity magazines don't contribute to the high death tolls in these mass shootings.

That's a tall order, and the answer popping into everyone's mind is: it doesn't matter because I have 2A rights.

But while the Heller decision effectively read the "well regulated militia" language out of the 2A, the actual holding was very narrow, affirming Heller's right to have a licensed, registered and immediately usable hand gun in his home for self defense. Almost everything else in Heller is dicta, and not binding on future cases. I suspect that a lot of anti-gun folks could easily live with those 2A "rights" - one can possess a licensed and registered firearm in their home for self defense. Unfortunately, very few of us could.

So, your conversations are important, but may be more difficult if you acknowledge what we all know - modern semi-automatic weapons are vastly more deadly than your rifles. After all, who's prepping for SHTF with muskets, black powder and a supply of lead? I'm not.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

For example, tell me how long it would take you to shoot 31 people using your rifles; now tell me how long it would take with an AR-15 and, say, 2 or 3 high capacity magazines?

Since I won't be shooting anyone with either...it will be the same amount of time.
That said...
No one will ever say :
"Gee , I am glad that my relative was shot and killed with a rifle that did not have :
A "high capacity magazine"...
A bayonet lug...
A folding stock..."
Dead is dead whether someone is shot and killed with a AR15 or a antique rifle that was and is my point...
Andy

 

[slimmer13]

With respect, your rifles are less threatening than modern semi-automatic rifles with high capacity magazines?

With respect, both are exactly the same amount threatening. Zero. They are both inanimate objects the same as anything else that could kill, vehicles, gasoline, pistols, bolt guns, whatever.

If gun people can't grasp that concept, I suppose we are pretty much bubblegumed.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

For the record I meant no disrespect to the poster who disagreed with me...

However I do not like the comparison of "How long would it take you to shoot 31 people using your rifles; now tell me how long it would take with a AR-15 and say 2-3 high capacity magazines?"

I dislike the comparison because it starts with the notion that I or someone else wants to shoot somebody or many people
It also can be seen as a assumption that the only reason to have a AR15 is indeed to shoot someone or several people...

Again my point was and is : A gun that is handled safely is no more dangerous or deadly than any other gun.
My view of a AR15 and my Hawken Rifle is the same...
Both are rifles...both are made to accurately place a projectile on a target...

As to one being more deadly , than the other... I say again...Dead is Dead...it makes no difference the size of the hole , a .223 or a .530 hole...in the right spot will kill you equally dead...there is no such thing as deader or more dead.

And as far as one holding more "shots" than the other...well , having been in a firefight or three...I have found that only hits matter most....suppressing fire advocates notwithstanding...
But even that doesn't really matter , since most AR15 owners will never use their rifle in such a manner.

This is part of the paradox I mention in my post that was quoted earlier....

No disrespect meant to any and all here who have been reading my thread.
Andy

 

[Colts4me]

The problem is gun owners have been demonized as criminals, every shooting is laid at the gun owners door step as if he was involved. Look how they Assualt the NRA blaming them for the school shooting. First rule of thumb is never let them paint us as outlaws, we are the good guys. Never let them get away with a lie because it's you they bear false witness against. Seek the truth and speak it, be the good guy.

 

[Diamondback]

The stinger would be if Andy also had my briefcase: As a closer, "By the way, there's been one of those next to you this whole time and it's never done anything to anybody else either, and if you're interested I'd love to explain precisely why every piece of it was selected for its role in Home Defense, which are all features that some want blanket prohibitions on..."

 

[Colts4me]

For the record I meant no disrespect to the poster who disagreed with me...

However I do not like the comparison of "How long would it take you to shoot 31 people using your rifles; now tell me how long it would take with a AR-15 and say 2-3 high capacity magazines?"

I dislike the comparison because it starts with the notion that I or someone else wants to shoot somebody or many people
It also can be seen as a assumption that the only reason to have a AR15 is indeed to shoot someone or several people...

Again my point was and is : A gun that is handled safely is no more dangerous or deadly than any other gun.
My view of a AR15 and my Hawken Rifle is the same...
Both are rifles...both are made to accurately place a projectile on a target...

As to one being more deadly , than the other... I say again...Dead is Dead...it makes no difference the size of the hole , a .223 or a .530 hole...in the right spot will kill you equally dead...there is no such thing as deader or more dead.

And as far as one holding more "shots" than the other...well , having been in a firefight or three...I have found that only hits matter most....suppressing fire advocates notwithstanding...
But even that doesn't really matter , since most AR15 owners will never use their rifle in such a manner.

This is part of the paradox I mention in my post that was quoted earlier....

No disrespect meant to any and all here who have been reading my thread.
Andy

Andy, I don't know anyone personally that has the heart to shoot one man much less 31. It doesn't matter if you give lots of bullets, like most Americans their heart isn't there for murder. If what a man owns demonize him then every truck driver in the nation is a potential mass murderer. We let the left lead the dialogue and thats how we are demonized.