Pump or Auto

[oregonshooter]

OK, we will agree to disagree. Claymores at the entry points would stop the intrusion, but is it the "reasonable" thing to do?

 

[MountainBear]

Anyone care to get back on point?

 

[wired]

$200 NFA tax on a claymore and no one will sell you one. 3" Shotgun shells are cheaper and easier to get.

 

[oregonshooter]

Anyone care to get back on point?

The point has been answered hasn't it? You have anything to add that was not already mentioned in the Auto/Pump OP question?

Very few autos (Benelli M2 is the only one I consider) are reliable enough to be used as a SD gun. A quality Remy 870 is the STANDARD in reliability for the past 50+ years for a reason.

I will add this:

If you need more than 5 shots of 00buck for the scenario you are envisioning the shotgun for... you are using the wrong gun. Get a carbine with 30 rounds and be done with it.

The shotgun has one small role in SD. Massive amounts of firepower per trigger pull with fast multiple target acquisition inside of 25 yards. That's what it's best at and the ONLY place it outshines an M4 carbine or the likes.

PS> We could add some eye candy.

 

[Mookie]

Mookie,

How can you call an action that depends on mag spring tension and shell weight to hit a ramp release "reliable?" The Remington auto's just are not a SD gun people, they never were designed to be.

I'm curious to hear your 870 issues?

I have zero experience with the Remington autos when it comes to anything other than shooting and loading. I do not know their internals or anything else. I do know quite a few people who use them for hunting and have for a very long time, with very good reliability. Plus, they have a good following online with few detractors, except in the SD area it seems.

As for the 870, it's a new express, I had a choice of shipping it back to Remington or polishing every piece of internal metal including the chamber to make it cycle reliably, same exact problem as my friends. Since I have previous bad experience with Remington I decided to do it myself.
Just glad it was on sale.

 

[oregonshooter]

Thanks for the clarification. I agree they need to be broke in with a few 1000 cycles in front of the TV.

Another good breakin is to take a brass brush and wrap it in 0000 steel, chuck it up in a cordless drill and polish the chamber with CLP.

PS> My 1100 has been 100% in 3Gun for the past year, but the design is too fragile for SD IMO.

 

[HahnsXD]

The Saiga 12 is one of the most unreliable semiauto shotguns on the market. You can make it reliable but its going to take work and even then reliability is going to be from the shoulder.

Are you kidding me?

The ONLY issues I have ever had with mine was with the lightest target loads, it would stovepipe the last round on most mags and in about 1 in 100 rounds it would fail to eject in the middle of a mag. Heavy loads have never been a problem, ever. Saiga made a manufacturing mistake with the gas ports on many guns including mine, they were either supposed to have 4 0.070" ports or 3 0.090" ports but they made many with 3 0.070" ports, take 30 minutes and knock the gas block off, drill out the gas ports to 0.090" like I did and it's 100% reliable.

I dunno what this nonsense about reliability only from the shoulder, I fire mine from the hip and one handed and have never ever had a problem.

I loved my 870 but the Saiga takes the cake.

 

[wired]

I know. I spent a lot of time and money getting my Saiga to work 100% too. Great shotgun in some respects. No autoloader is softer recoiling. Fun gun to play with if you have the right ( factory) mags but I still wouldnt trust my life to one. Out of the box forget it and thats what most gun owners will be using. Stating that they work great ....IF you do all this stuff...pretty much disqualifies them as a viable defensive shotgun option.

I still maintain that of auto loaders the Benelli is the only shotgun I trust 100% without reservation. Just don't try to fire a pistol grip tactical model from the hip with 3" magnum loads. It'll go bang and chamber a new round every time but you may need to go to an orthopedist afterward to get your wrist fixed.

 

[GRUNDEL]

Got my first 870 back in 1977. Over the years I have used it for both birds and clays in the some of the worst conditions the NW has to offer. I have owned other brands both auto and pump, but when it came to picking up a new shotgun for HD I wanted reliability and something I could run in my sleep. Had to go with a 870 HD model. That said the first thing I will be grabbing when I roll out of bed will be my Pistol.

 

[Drkside45]

Before we go to bed at night,I take my mossy 500a HD out of the safe and it goes right next to my night stand.Fully loaded,but not chambered.It has a tac. light as well.I've owned a lot of pumps,the 500 has never let me down.I think the tac. light is very Important,as all the action may not take place just in one room,and maybe in the dark.I can have one chambered,and my light on before my feet hit the floor.As far as a carbine,I dont want to shoot into my neighbors house.And the barking dog at the front door will send most running for an easier target.

 

[spengo]

Actually, FYI a properly loaded carbine (assuming in 5.56 caliber) has less of a risk of over-penetration than defensive shotgun ammo like slugs and 00.

Yep, I heard that too. Even 9mm is a pig going through walls or so it was said.

I think the only test I saw of this used 55gr M193 though. I would be interested to see how SS109 and Mk 262/Hornandy 75gr TAP compare.

Do you remember the source for this information?

EDIT: On a side note, I would not worry about over-penetration killing neighbors too much. Unless I lived in an apartment or something with lots of people packed in pretty close. The likelihood of a bullet hitting your neighbor seems astronomically small. When it comes to self defense I will use what lets me stop the threat as quickly and efficiently as possible.

 

[HahnsXD]

Stating that they work great ....IF you do all this stuff...pretty much disqualifies them as a viable defensive shotgun option.

Didn't realize enlarging the gas ports qualifies as doing "all this stuff". Besides, the initial problem is still with only light loads, not what you should be using for HD anyways.


I've shot mine enough to determine it's 100% reliable and I trust my life with it.

 

[MountainBear]

Do all of you with semi-auto's only train with full blown self-defense ammo? Or do you just not train very often? Everyone keeps talking about their semi-auto's feeding great with full power ammo. That's great if you can afford to run nothing but 00 buck and slugs. The reason I said I preferred the 870 is not that I plan on scaring the intruder with the racking of my slide, but rather that I can afford to take my shotgun out with me every time I go shooting and not have to mortgage the house to use premium stuff. Do I keep the shotgun loaded with premium stuff when its setting next to my bed? Absolutely. But I don't mind paying $5 a box for 25 rounds of target loads as opposed to $6 for five rounds of standard 00 buck...

 

[wired]

An M2 will feed and fire whatever you pour in it except for novelty and LTL ammo.

Do all of you with semi-auto's only train with full blown self-defense ammo? Or do you just not train very often? Everyone keeps talking about their semi-auto's feeding great with full power ammo. That's great if you can afford to run nothing but 00 buck and slugs. The reason I said I preferred the 870 is not that I plan on scaring the intruder with the racking of my slide, but rather that I can afford to take my shotgun out with me every time I go shooting and not have to mortgage the house to use premium stuff. Do I keep the shotgun loaded with premium stuff when its setting next to my bed? Absolutely. But I don't mind paying $5 a box for 25 rounds of target loads as opposed to $6 for five rounds of standard 00 buck...

 

[wired]

My favorite shotgun video.

YouTube - Full auto saiga 12 gauge shotgun with 30 round drum

 

[HahnsXD]

Do all of you with semi-auto's only train with full blown self-defense ammo? Or do you just not train very often? Everyone keeps talking about their semi-auto's feeding great with full power ammo.

I've already said my S12 is flawless with any ammo.

 

[oregonshooter]

Anyone care to get back on point?

hmmm....

 

[deen_ad]

a Mossburg 500, a really cherry 870, a 590 and a Win 1300. Of the four I like the 1300. It's the only one that reliably feeds the Aguila ½ size rds that I keep for self defense. In fact the 1300 is about the only pump or auto that Aguila recommends for use with their rounds. I keep 13 rds loaded which sould be enough for any social engagement I need it for.

I also carry the 1300 in our MH, overpenetration there can be a real problem.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
WAC Member
SWWAC Member

 

[ch139]

Remember reading this somewhere and nowadays wholeheartedly agree.

A combat shotgun IS a pump shotgun!

Combat, or in this case Home Defense.

First off, you need something that is going to work 100%. Personally, I don't think a "tuned" or "tricked out" ANYTHING is a good idea. If it's ever gonna choke, it'll do right when you need it most... for me anyway.

Think the idea of short stroking a pump is a load of crap; somebody has been reading too many old stories about hunting on the Dark Continent and drinking too much "MUST HAVE controlled-round-feed bolt-gun" kool aid.

Third point of concern. My "well being" and the "well being" of my family extends beyond the violence for which I need this weapon. After I "win" this immediate fight, there are going to be ongoing "attacks" against the "well being" of my family. Last thing I need is an attorney holding up my pimped out S12 in a courtroom and that family "well being" going down the toilet (same reason I don't carry that .500 thermal nuclear magnum). Unless of course a pump shotgun is inadequate... at which point I'd think even that S12 isn't going to cut it... a different tack altogether might be in order.

Bi-Mart carries an 870 in a HD type configuration (18-inch CYL bore, 3-inch Mag and factory Remington +2) NIB for $329.

 

[Key-Hay]

A guy in a bar is looking for trouble. He walks up to a patron playing pool and tries to picks a fight. He says "I can take you down, I know karate" The pool player replies "well I know Ka-Chawk" Puzzled the guy pickin the fight replies "What the **** is Ka-Chawk"???. The pool player pulls out a pump shotgun from bag and racks a round with a loud KA-CHAWK. Trouble maker slinks off.

It's been said that one of the 5 scariest (and most recognizable) noises known to modern man is the sound of a pump shotgun cycling a round.