Poly80 Down & Out.

[Bill Siegle]

It's a shame they have been forced out of business. I've enjoyed seeing the DIY industry pop up around 80% builds. I believe there were many benefits from what they were doing. Building your own firearms is an American tradition and something that should be preserved not persecuted. Criminals gonna commit crimes. Stop punishing good citizens and businesses doing legal activities.

 

[Koda]

"CAN" one be assembled and function in 30min? You bet! 5min like the propaganda claims?

I don't think the exact time matters. The reality is yes, most of them can be built in a reasonably short time, and function. The ones that have issues are the exception, the criminal running a build scheme just tosses that one. The individual criminal eventually would too and try again till he gets one right.
Regardless, the reality is no one here is surprised at this outcome. It did in fact make it easier for bad guys to get guns even if it took them days to build one.

Good guys who built them for lawful reasons got their serialized by now and are moving on. Good guys who built them for political reasons are burying them in their backyards lol...

 

[MikeInOr]

It's not surprising that gooberment overreach and frivolous lawfare would put them under, but I would say.... it seems as though those that actually believe you can slap together a polymer frame/receiver into a fully functional firearm in 5min has never done one. That's the propaganda pitch, but like many things coming out of the anti-gunners, it is nothing even remotely close to the truth.

Working polymer is easier in that it doesn't requires specialized tools like working metal, but it still requires time and skill to work them up.

It also quite easy to argue that they actually "can" require much more fettling to transform them into a fully functional and reliable firearm than.. say... doing an 80% AR receiver. By their nature, doing a project by hand is less precise and the proprietary components do not meet the same precision MFG'ing specifications that AR/1911 components do.

If you have the tools, use a precision jig... that is common with metal frames/receiver projects... and can follow basic instructions... the end product is nearly guaranteed to function reliably right out of the gate. IOW, the argument that any idiot can do one of those... where doing a project by hand with simple tools may require greater working knowledge to diagnose an issue and how to correct it isn't completely invalid.

Regardless of what is being MFG'ed... what is shocking is that a company producing perfectly legal products of any kind can be systematically targeted and put out of business by the gooberment and special interest groups simply because they don't like it.

In an ideal world, the US system is supposed to protect any group or individual from undo persecution. Not lead the charge and facilitate it.

I have built two, a PF940CV1 and a PF940SC. Like I said it takes about 5 minutes to make a useable frame out of a Polymer 80 frame kit once you know what you are doing (the first one took a good hour to cut off the extra plastic). I think my estimate of a 1/2 hour to assemble a complete gun out of a P80 frame is also pretty accurate if you have done it before. Both that I built functioned perfectly from the start.

In my opinion the ATF should have defined the P80 frames as 95% frames from the beginning. When they gave them a pass as an 80% frame it was inevitable we would end up where we are now.

I have built Lego sets that where much more challenging and took much longer to build than a P80 pistol.

 

[Yarome]

I don't think the exact time matters. The reality is yes, most of them can be built in a reasonably short time, and function. The ones that have issues are the exception, the criminal running a build scheme just tosses that one. The individual criminal eventually would too and try again till he gets one right.
Regardless, the reality is no one here is surprised at this outcome. It did in fact make it easier for bad guys to get guns even if it took them days to build one.

Good guys who built them for lawful reasons got their serialized by now and are moving on. Good guys who built them for political reasons are burying them in their backyards lol...

To reiterate, I'm not balking at the potential. I'm balking at the anti-gunners propaganda that some seem to have bought into. Even among gun owners it's always interesting to see how many get hooking into false narratives when it's not something they are familiar with or it doesn't directly relate/affect them.

Considering most of those products are mail order, you also have to wonder how many criminals are using their CC's and home mailing addresses with the intent to criminal with them, hu(?) I'm sure there are some, but...

It would also be interesting to hear from some of the FFL's that have been advertising serialization services to see what kind of volume they've been seeing. There really isn't any metric or way to know just how prevalent they might be, but it would be interesting to see some numbers, anyway. Poly80's seem to be the main focus, but I'm quite sure receivers are far and wide in the greater abundance.

 

[Alexx1401]

I wonder if this will affect P80s competitors products?

GST-9: MOD100

Explore the GST-9: MOD100 for precision and reliability. Ideal for gun enthusiasts, this product offers top-tier performance for your firearm build.

www.80percentarms.com

Looks like that one you link to is not an 80% unless I am missing something? Says it has to go to an FFL, so sounds like its just a functioning frame, not a "ghost gun".

 

[Yarome]

I have built two, a PF940CV1 and a PF940SC. Like I said it takes about 5 minutes to make a useable frame out of a Polymer 80 frame kit once you know what you are doing (the first one took a good hour to cut off the extra plastic). I think my estimate of a 1/2 hour to assemble a complete gun out of a P80 frame is also pretty accurate if you have done it before. Both that I built functioned perfectly from the start.

In my opinion the ATF should have defined the P80 frames as 95% frames from the beginning. When they gave them a pass as an 80% frame it was inevitable we would end up where we are now.

5 minutes just to cut the tabs and rough cutting the channel I can believe, but that's still not a "useable frame" nor what the narrative is. No matter how many times you've done one, no one is capable of gathering all the tools, cutting the tabs, finishing out the channel to a functional level, drilling the pins and fitting all the parts and pins into a fully functional firearm in 5-10min. Easily within 30min, if you know exactly what you're doing and you're lucky... that's believable.

You're entitled to your opinion, but even at any percentage... "not a firearm" is still.... not a firearm. Just like "not a machine gun" is still... not a machine gun.

 

[bradsteen]

P80 was operating a business compliant with state and federal law. We have a legislative branch whose purpose is to pass laws. If P80's business model was truly a concern, they should have passed a federal law outlawing that type of thing. It would be challenged on constitutional grounds, but that's the path that is supposed to be taken. But that's not what they did. The cowards realized that they couldn't get legislation through, so they instead decided to use the power of the purse (taxpayer funds) and the courts as a weapon to sue the company out of existence. If you want to know what tyranny looks like, this is one example - a select few using their power to manipulate the system to their will, creating de-facto laws without the consent of the governed.

 

[DirectDrive]

Criminals will still get their hands on guns with 3D-printed frames.

 

[Koda]

Looks like that one you link to is not an 80% unless I am missing something? Says it has to go to an FFL, so sounds like its just a functioning frame, not a "ghost gun".

oops, my bad. Being on a site dedicated to 80% guns tricked me. I was looking for an example of other 80% frames but cant recall the brand. They are out there.

 

[Koda]

To reiterate, I'm not balking at the potential. I'm balking at the anti-gunners propaganda that some seem to have bought into. Even among gun owners it's always interesting to see how many get hooking into false narratives when it's not something they are familiar with or it doesn't directly relate/affect them.

Considering most of those products are mail order, you also have to wonder how many criminals are using their CC's and home mailing addresses with the intent to criminal with them, hu(?) I'm sure there are some, but...

It would also be interesting to hear from some of the FFL's that have been advertising serialization services to see what kind of volume they've been seeing. There really isn't any metric or way to know just how prevalent they might be, but it would be interesting to see some numbers, anyway. Poly80's seem to be the main focus, but I'm quite sure receivers are far and wide in the greater abundance.

I get and understand where your coming from but its true they are not hard to build. If they were they wouldn't have exploded in popularity, nothing becomes popular because its more difficult.

Ive read that gangs recruit new members that have clean records to buy (strawpurchase) serialized guns so I imagine they use them to mail order ghost guns too if they wanted to avoid the paper trail.

 

[Koda]

Criminals will still get their hands on guns with 3D-printed frames.

That's the irony of the ghost gun subject. Technology is only going to improve and we are there with gun manufacturing. And electronic data "wants to be free", once its out there its out there and nothing can stop it. Didn't they already ban distributing 3D program data for frames? I don't think they can control that though. As they ban ghost guns, only criminals will be making them. While thats a familiar trope, Ive always thought that ghost guns will be the "kingpin" in proving that gun control is a fallacy because now it will be impossible to prohibited people from getting guns.

 

[Yarome]

Ive read that gangs recruit new members that have clean records to buy (strawpurchase) serialized guns so I imagine they use them to mail order ghost guns too if they wanted to avoid the paper trail.

I agree, kinda. There though we're really talking about more organized criminal enterprises and not just your local low lifes doing them for themselves to criminal with.

I would guess that with the more organized groups, banning 80%'s won't make one bit of difference. Maybe they do have people making "ghost guns" en masse, but I think that is "less likely". I would think it's much more in line with their MO to take the path of least resistance, making as few paper trails as possible and keeping their distance from the actual crimes in obtaining them. IOW, ...as is common... buying stolen firearms or straw purchased with cash piped in from other parts of the country... not tied to persons or crimes in their own backyards.

The doubts I have about serious criminal gangs doing the "straw" mail ordering thing en masse is that little issue of mail ordering with CC over state lines. Any criminal organization worth their salt enough to be running a successful "ghost gun" building factory like that has to have the good sense to avoid getting themselves into high risk RICO territory. I can't imagine the risk is very well justified when they can obtain firearms through other means at much lower risk.

Not that it doesn't happen at all, but I highly doubt it's as common or at the scale some might believe it to be. My guess is it's more limited to the young and dumb petty wannabe thugs building them for their own use.

It's not as if banning 80%'s is going to suddenly cut off their firearm supply or reduce crime though. They never had any issue getting firearms prior to the advent of 80%'s and sure won't have any problem getting them if they're banned.

Like all gun control laws, it only limits the law abiding.

 

[bradsteen]

That's the irony of the ghost gun subject. Technology is only going to improve and we are there with gun manufacturing. And electronic data "wants to be free", once its out there its out there and nothing can stop it. Didn't they already ban distributing 3D program data for frames? I don't think they can control that though. As they ban ghost guns, only criminals will be making them. While thats a familiar trope, Ive always thought that ghost guns will be the "kingpin" in proving that gun control is a fallacy because now it will be impossible to prohibited people from getting guns.

IMO 3D printing & desktop CNC are the best things that ever happened in the 2A space because they eliminate the ability of government to prevent the citizenry from manufacturing their own weapons, and lower the bar for design and development to the point that the average person can DIY it with a reasonable degree of success. Things have come a long way since Philip Luty's time. You no longer need a ton of special tools or experience with metalworking. Heck, now you can even rifle barrels using the electrolysis technique, no cutting tools required at all.

Another fun fact is that our current regulations are based on firearms / explosives only. Electromagnetic weapons like gauss rifles are not legally firearms, which means no background check is required to purchase them. Sure, they're not that great now, but they will eventually equal firearms in capability as the technology improves. Until someone kicks up a fuss and gets legislation passed any 12 year old will be able to buy one online and have it shipped to their door.

Short version, we're in a golden age of arms tech development, and at a point where tyrannical governments will have a much harder time maintaining control over citizens by simply preventing them from having access to weapons.

 

[Ginocide]

I like P80 ergonomics better than Glock.

I still support DIY guns but I'm not surprised at all that criminals were making P80s. The real problem isnt unserialized guns, its letting the criminals that will make them out of jail.

Yeah, the p80 grip angle is way better for me than the alternatives.

 

[PORSCHE928S4]

I like P80 ergonomics better than Glock.

I still support DIY guns but I'm not surprised at all that criminals were making P80s. The real problem isnt unserialized guns, its letting the criminals that will make them out of jail.

I bought two complete P-80 numbered frames from Palmetto they were having a fire sale @ $60 ea. They are more ergonomic but you can tell the quality difference . They did bring two Gen 3 uppers to life and work just fine I like having two not Glocks lol!

 

[Koda]

I bought two complete P-80 numbered frames from Palmetto they were having a fire sale @ $60 ea. They are more ergonomic but you can tell the quality difference . They did bring two Gen 3 uppers to life and work just fine I like having two not Glocks lol!

way better looking than a Glock, but making one reliable is hit and miss. I have one that runs fine, one that is a problem child with no clue what to do. The problem child is the one with all the high end fancy parts too...

 

[Defense Minister]

Of course the law makers waving their hands in victory still ignore the fact that they allow the criminals they are complaining about to roam free.

You need to stop believing that gun control is about crime. It's not…

 

[arakboss]

You need to stop believing that gun control is about crime. It's not…

Unless freedom is the crime?

 

[Deavis]

"Too easy to build?"

Yeah, they made accessing your civil rights, "too easy."

I hate it when you can be free and not have to beg your overlords for permission. They do too (obviously).

 

[Koda]

Yeah, they made accessing your civil rights, "too easy."

Ghost guns would never been invented if it wasn't for gun control. They think this P80 case is a win but they created a monster. "data wants to be free".