Multi State travel with SBR

[Nwcid]

I did some looking online and could not find a reliable answer to this question so I thought I would see if anyone here knows or can provide a reliable reference.

I regularly travel with my silencers, but since they do not require a form for interstate travel it is a non-issue. I recently got my first SBR and I would like to travel with it. Not that it matters for this, but someone will idly bring it up, it is a .22 AR with a 9" barrel and silencer on it. I have no plans on using it for self defense, it is just is cheap fun for plinking.

I know if I am traveling to a location it is as simple as filing out a 5320.20, often for the whole year and go from there. My challenge is that we will be in the RV and we rarely do anything besides boondock (free camp on open public land) in multiple states often for a few months. Currently we are just starting month 3 of 5-6 months out. So far, outside of traveling, we have stayed in 2 states and are at our 5th location. This is very typical of how we travel, of course we avoid states where they do not like people to have rights.

I have read some posts of people putting GPS coordinates for one location and then calling everything else "travel" but that feels risky, but I do not have enough knowledge to know if that is true.

Any advice or guidance?

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[BDA.45]

Watching......potentially In the same scenario......

 

[User 1234]

Much of this depends on which states you will be traveling through and which states you will be staying at.

 

[micdude]

I do believe if you leave Washington state with your " assault rifle" aka AR SBR you are breaking the state law by coming back in with it. The fact that the ATF requires you to get permission to leave the state with it is worrying with this administration in reinterring the state without some kind of potential issue.

 

[Yarome]

I have read some posts of people putting GPS coordinates for one location and then calling everything else "travel" but that feels risky, but I do not have enough knowledge to know if that is true.

Any advice or guidance?

The odds of being questioned is minute, but legally... yes. Going that route is quite risky if you are determined to be "stopped" in a location not listed on your permission slip. The majority of my time is spent boondocking as well. Having "unloaded gear" around a site, possibly awning and slide out extended constitutes "camping" at a "destination". People get nailed for that from time to time even extending their slide out in a parking lot for an hour or two to have lunch in a "no camping allowed" location.

Not even considering the RV angle... simple interstate travel with a firearm protections are not always enough if you stray too far from any "reasonable" travel route or for too long of a stop over. "Reasonable" travelling to you may not be what a LEO might consider "reasonable" transiting of their state under the fed protections.

Some will say that if you keep your nose clean then no one should ever have a reason to review your permission slip. There is the more likely concern though... say... in the event of a break in or theft. Reporting it... you may have some uncomfortable explaining to do.

I get it though. Boondocking... it's not always common that you actually have an exact location locked in before you actually drop your jacks. Plans are fluid, however, one approach is to simply file your permissions slip online once you're parked. As long as you can show you made every reasonable effort to comply with the law then it's likely to save you any potential headaches.

Others do as you said though without "issue". Although... I've never actually heard of someone that has actually put it to the test to claim, "you're fine!". IE., Actually camping, had to present their permission slip for review, were not at the listed destination and got away scott free by claiming "I'm just travelling". KWIM?

If you're going to go that route... why not just pick a random location the furthest away from home for an annual? No matter where you are, you can always claim you're either "travelling" to your destination or "travelling" on your way home... right?

I think it all just boils down to how much effort you're willing to make and how much risk you're comfortable with.

 

[KennVFRidr]

I do believe if you leave Washington state with your " assault rifle" aka AR SBR you are breaking the state law by coming back in with it. The fact that the ATF requires you to get permission to leave the state with it is worrying with this administration in reinterring the state without some kind of potential issue.

My understanding is that if you leave the State with it, then return with it...you are not importing it. Importing it implies that you acquired it somewhere else and are bringing it into the State for the first time.

 

[Yarome]

My understanding is that if you leave the State with it, then return with it...you are not importing it. Importing it implies that you acquired it somewhere else and are bringing it into the State for the first time.

This.

The only time it's an issue if if you allow your WA state residency status to lapse or even temporarily designate another state as your "domicile state". IE. Trading in your WA state DL for another states while working/studying out of state for an extended period.

Even though you were a WA resident and purchased it within WA state at the time... returning to WA state you are considered a "new resident" and it would be considered "importing".

 

[Nwcid]

Much of this depends on which states you will be traveling through and which states you will be staying at.

As I said, we avoid the states that do not believe in our rights. Of course avoiding states where they are not legal, what other consideration is there?

 

[Nwcid]

I do believe if you leave Washington state with your " assault rifle" aka AR SBR you are breaking the state law by coming back in with it. The fact that the ATF requires you to get permission to leave the state with it is worrying with this administration in reinterring the state without some kind of potential issue.

That is not the way the law is written. It has to do with transfer, or import. At the current time, you can come and go with your legally possessed items.

 

[Nwcid]

The odds of being questioned is minute, but legally... yes. Going that route is quite risky if you are determined to be "stopped" in a location not listed on your permission slip. The majority of my time is spent boondocking as well. Having "unloaded gear" around a site, possibly awning and slide out extended constitutes "camping" at a "destination". People get nailed for that from time to time even extending their slide out in a parking lot for an hour or two to have lunch in a "no camping allowed" location.

Not even considering the RV angle... simple interstate travel with a firearm protections are not always enough if you stray too far from any "reasonable" travel route or for too long of a stop over. "Reasonable" travelling to you may not be what a LEO might consider "reasonable" transiting of their state under the fed protections.

Some will say that if you keep your nose clean then no one should ever have a reason to review your permission slip. There is the more likely concern though... say... in the event of a break in or theft. Reporting it... you may have some uncomfortable explaining to do.

I get it though. Boondocking... it's not always common that you actually have an exact location locked in before you actually drop your jacks. Plans are fluid, however, one approach is to simply file your permissions slip online once you're parked. As long as you can show you made every reasonable effort to comply with the law then it's likely to save you any potential headaches.

Others do as you said though without "issue". Although... I've never actually heard of someone that has actually put it to the test to claim, "you're fine!". IE., Actually camping, had to present their permission slip for review, were not at the listed destination and got away scott free by claiming "I'm just travelling". KWIM?

If you're going to go that route... why not just pick a random location the furthest away from home for an annual? No matter where you are, you can always claim you're either "travelling" to your destination or "travelling" on your way home... right?

I think it all just boils down to how much effort you're willing to make and how much risk you're comfortable with.

I appreciate the detailed response and this is similar to other things I have read.

You right, it is very, very low frequency that something may happen, but very high risk if it does.

You are right about boondocking, we have a general idea of the area, but rarely know exactly where, or exactly when. I thought you had file and have it approved before moving interstate which can take quite some time? It is rare we are in one location more than 2 weeks.

 

[SCARed]

The .20 is only for INTERstate travel. Once you're in that state, it doesn't matter where you go. So yes, you can randomly put down some location in a state you plan on going to and once approved, go anywhere in that state.
Submit one for any state you plan on going to, put dates for 364 days, and enjoy your life.
If there's a state where it's not legal to possess SBR, like CA, you're "covered" by FOPA, but only to travel thru. So don't plan on stopping unnecessarily. NO siteseeing.

 

[User 1234]

Do NOT rely on FOPA to protect you from firearm possession charges in a ban state.

 

[SCARed]

Do NOT rely on FOPA to protect you from firearm possession charges in a ban state.

You're right, and I should have put "covered" in quotes.

 

[PiratePast40]

Seems to me that @wired has spoken about his experiences with traveling with NSA items several times. Might want to give him a shout.

 

[Yarome]

The .20 is only for INTERstate travel. Once you're in that state, it doesn't matter where you go. So yes, you can randomly put down some location in a state you plan on going to and once approved, go anywhere in that state.
Submit one for any state you plan on going to, put dates for 364 days, and enjoy your life.
If there's a state where it's not legal to possess SBR, like CA, you're "covered" by FOPA, but only to travel thru. So don't plan on stopping unnecessarily. NO siteseeing.

Seems to me that @wired has spoken about his experiences with traveling with NSA items several times. Might want to give him a shout.

The above is exactly @wired 's advice. Supposedly designate the GPS coordinates of an entire state, apply for a one year permission slip and you can travel anywhere you want within that state at any time. Submit the paperwork for all 50 states once a year and you can go anywhere and whenever you please.

To be clear.... that has never been challenged/tested and presented to a court pending charges to hold any water. Because a person hasn't been caught misrepresenting a specific destination location (as required) by confounding the reviewer with a flurry of GPS coords they don't bother to look up... does not make it a legally binding and sound idea.

Granting an annual slip is also a "special circumstances" provision. IE., You will be making multiple trips between home and a specific single point B destination throughout the year. Mainly for those that own property or work in another state. It isn't exactly meant to be an annual "catch all" permission slip for multiple destinations any time you please.

GPS coords may be used when a location does not have a street address, but within the published rule, and inquiring directly to the alphabet on this specific issue... they have been more than clear, "It must be a specific location within the state." [direct quote]

His belief is that if the permission slip comes back approved, no matter what you put on your form, the gooberment is bound to honor it, regardless of what the published rule says.

I more believe that if you intentionally violate their rules and guidelines, simply because they rubber stamp your permission slip does not necessarily mean it is "valid" if it was obtained through subterfuge. Under scrutiny it's just as likely they will say you violated the rules in your application which makes it null and void, regardless if it was rubber stamped or not.

Call me a skeptic, but from my experience, if the gooberment makes a mistake, the "fault" and consequences still falls on you.

The nutshell: Simply because "I haven't been caught and gotten in trouble for it yet" may certainly be the case... but IMHO... that is extremely poor and potentially dangerous advice to be passing along to others as "gospel".

YMMV

 

[Yarome]

You are right about boondocking, we have a general idea of the area, but rarely know exactly where, or exactly when. I thought you had file and have it approved before moving interstate which can take quite some time? It is rare we are in one location more than 2 weeks.

I think that's more true than not for nearly all of us, but yeah, the 14 day rule kinda sucks, don't it.

Technically, you are indeed supposed to get approval before leaving your home state, but I know it has been recognized that "special circumstance" allowance can be made. In legal realms, "intent' can be a critical element.

The theory behind submitting an application upon arrival is that you are overtly demonstrating "intent" to satisfy the law... within your special circumstances.

The other side of the coin being, by not doing so (at least occasionally during your travels), it can easily be argued to demonstrate willful "intent" to not comply with the law. Especially if you are clearly camping and try to lie and say, "I'm just traveling". KWIM?

For those that I'm aware of that do that, they typically have a permission slip with a date range covering their planned trip to a specific "furthermost" destination before departure. (Even if they never end up getting there) They then submit applications at each previously undetermined and longer term stopping points. IE., Not necessarily for the typical day or two stops between main docking locations, but they will for a week+.

Minimizing the risk type of approach.

 

[wired]

The above is exactly @wired 's advice. Supposedly designate the GPS coordinates of an entire state, apply for a one year permission slip and you can travel anywhere you want within that state at any time. Submit the paperwork for all 50 states once a year and you can go anywhere and whenever you please.

To be clear.... that has never been challenged/tested and presented to a court pending charges to hold any water. Because a person hasn't been caught misrepresenting a specific destination location (as required) by confounding the reviewer with a flurry of GPS coords they don't bother to look up... does not make it a legally binding and sound idea.

Granting an annual slip is also a "special circumstances" provision. IE., You will be making multiple trips between home and a specific single point B destination throughout the year. Mainly for those that own property or work in another state. It isn't exactly meant to be an annual "catch all" permission slip for multiple destinations any time you please.

GPS coords may be used when a location does not have a street address, but within the published rule, and inquiring directly to the alphabet on this specific issue... they have been more than clear, "It must be a specific location within the state." [direct quote]

His belief is that if the permission slip comes back approved, no matter what you put on your form, the gooberment is bound to honor it, regardless of what the published rule says.

I more believe that if you intentionally violate their rules and guidelines, simply because they rubber stamp your permission slip does not necessarily mean it is "valid" if it was obtained through subterfuge. Under scrutiny it's just as likely they will say you violated the rules in your application which makes it null and void, regardless if it was rubber stamped or not.

Call me a skeptic, but from my experience, if the gooberment makes a mistake, the "fault" and consequences still falls on you.

The nutshell: Simply because "I haven't been caught and gotten in trouble for it yet" may certainly be the case... but IMHO... that is extremely poor and potentially dangerous advice to be passing along to others as "gospel".

YMMV

Yes, Like usual I think we should all look at case law on this since we have different opinions on what the law is to see what the courts opinion on that provision of the law are since lay opinion is completely valueless. Lets all get out our lists of successful prosecutions of violations of the 5320.20 travel requirements to review.

I'll wait.

 

[wired]

I did have someone ask me the other day if they could use the GPS coordinates for the state of Virginia to file a 5320.20 .

Didnt really think that through first huh.

 

[Yarome]

Lets all get out our lists of successful prosecutions of violations of the 5320.20 travel requirements.

I'll wait.

Me too!

I'm not aware of any, but then again, if someone had been charged/convicted, I very highly doubt many would hear about it outside of a courtroom. It's not a "sexy" enough charge and likely drowned out by the greater charges a person was convicted of... not the "add-on".

I don't believe the OP's question though was geared toward, "should I ever even bother doing a dot20?" It's easy to argue that you're more likely to be hit by lightning than to have to produce a valid dot20 in a court of law... so... Nah! There really isn't a big incentive to obey the law!

What the law states and how it is supposed to be filled and filed... vs.... what you're highly likely to be able to get away with are entirely different animals. The law is quite clear and not much room for interpretation. Nowhere does it state or imply your "destination location" may be an entire state. Quite the contrary.

To each their own.

 

[wired]

Me too!

I'm not aware of any, but then again, if someone had been charged/convicted, I very highly doubt many would hear about it outside of a courtroom. It's not a "sexy" enough charge and likely drowned out by the greater charges a person was convicted of... not the "add-on".

I don't believe the OP's question though was geared toward, "should I ever even bother doing a dot20?" It's easy to argue that you're more likely to be hit by lightning than to have to produce a valid dot20 in a court of law... so... Nah! There really isn't a big incentive to obey the law!

What the law states and how it is supposed to be filled and filed... vs.... what you're highly likely to be able to get away with are entirely different animals. The law is quite clear and not much room for interpretation. Nowhere does it state or imply your "destination location" may be an entire state. Quite the contrary.

To each their own.

To further complicate things as in MUCH further complicate things 97% of federal prosecutions are plea bargained down. Thats a real number BTW. 97%! Very few go to trial and the charges are often nothing like what the actual end sentence is given for.

There is always room for interpretation of laws. I know of not a single prosecution of 5320.20 and Im pretty deep in that world. Why is that? Well, theres a few reasons.

1. They dont care? Thats really a big one. Its a nothing crime that would get laughed out of court and they would never bring charges on anyway. .
2. They would really only use it for charge stacking. Leave the state to commit a crime and get caught they'd stack it on deep . That ignores the fact that legally owned NFA devices are almost never used in crimes. Statistically insignificant.
3. The ATF has no say in where you go in a state that you travel to once you're in that state. If you are in Oregon and you go to a range in Seattle once you are in Washington that ATF cannot dictate where you go once in state. There would literally be nothing to charge you with if you filed for a 5320.20 that encompassed the entire state. They say you have to put an address on the form. Thats it and thats as far as the enforcement goes. .