More proof that 10 rounds is probably not enough....

[Member 45541]

Proof that 10 rounds is probably not enough?

High capacity pistols...giving hope to people with low capacity accuracy standards since the late 1920s

Accuracy and penetration, have been replaced with capacity and expansion.

I will agree that what you say is true to a point. there have been trained individuals miss under high stress situations. Training and knowing your particular firearm are vital but, how well you stay composed when your life is being threatened are big factors also. I know you know this but, it is important for the everyday individual to understand this also if they are going to carry for self-defense.

Also, depending on scenario, those extra rounds might make a difference if particular bad guy/gal is padded up with thick layers.

 

[Nosferatu]

Accuracy and penetration, have been replaced with capacity and expansion.

This applies to the gene pool as well, which has produced the creatures featured in these incidents.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Also, depending on scenario, those extra rounds might make a difference if particular bad guy/gal is padded up with thick lalayers.

I don't know of many wearing 4 layers of heavy denim...

Over 20" of penetration into a calibrated gel block after going through 4 layers of heavy denim...from a 32 H&R Magnum at less than 900fps

 

[Cerberus Group]

I will agree that what you say is true to a point. there have been trained individuals miss under high stress situations. Training and knowing your particular firearm are vital but, how well you stay composed when your life is being threatened are big factors also. I know you know this but, it is important for the everyday individual to understand this also if they are going to carry for self-defense.

One can't replicate the stress of an actual shooting, but we can do things to induce some kind of stress.

2 things work well...

1 - Do drills while others are watching

2 - Do 5 min of continuous exercise to get the heart rate up, and muscles stressed.

1 min of each back to back without stopping;

Jumping Jack's, Squats, Lunges, Push-ups, and Burpees...then go run drills immediately without taking a break and see how well you do.

If you suck, get after some cardio and some weights etc. It doesn't take much, something is better than nothing. Even those with some disabilities, with aging ailments etc., can do something to improve.

 

[Member 45541]

One can't replicate the stress of an actual shooting, but we can do things to induce some kind of stress.

2 things work well...

1 - Do drills while others are watching

2 - Do 5 min of continuous exercise to get the heart rate up, and muscles stressed.

1 min of each back to back without stopping;

Jumping Jack's, Squats, Lunges, Push-ups, and Burpees...then go run drills immediately without taking a break and see how well you do.

I am aware of all these and great points to put out there! Hopefully some new gun owners will read this and think about it.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Some thoughts :

Bullets can do weird things when they hit flesh....

Never under estimate the will to live in an opponent...

I have seen men stop fighting when shot at or hit with what the Army calls 'Light Wounds"....
And other men continue to fight even after being hit with what should have been a right then and there lethal hit or otherwise critically hit.

What worked well once in a past engagement ...is no guarantee that it will work the same for your present engagement...

Don't get stuck in your thinking of :
If A happens..I must do B..or react in a set manner ...
Bad guys won't play by your rules , don't care about your training..and have plans of their own.

Andy

 

[Member 45541]

Some thoughts :

Bullets can do weird things when they hit flesh....

Never under estimate the will to live in an opponent...

I have seen men stop fighting when shot at or hit with what the Army calls 'Light Wounds"....
And other men continue to fight even after being hit with what should have been a right then and there lethal hit or otherwise critically hit.

What worked well once in a past engagement ...is no guarantee that it will work the same for your present engagement...

Don't get stuck in your thinking of :
If A happens..I must do B..or react in a set manner ...
Bad guys won't play by your rules , don't care about your training..and have plans of their own.

Andy

Better said than the way I put it!

 

[Cerberus Group]

Some thoughts :

Bullets can do weird things when they hit flesh....

Having assisted with many gunshot victim autopsies, have come to know one glaring fact...

One can shoot 10 different people, in the same spot, using the same gun, same distance, angle, and the same bullet etc., and get 10 different results.

 

[Koda]

Magazine capacity is based on the current technology not statistical probability. If all other things are equal ( accuracy, training) its not the low statistical probability you would need to reload, its the consequences of needing to reload when the bad guy(s) doesnt.

 

[Member 24198]

If some kook like this charges someone FEW can actually hit the said kook 5 times out of 5 shots. A LOT of shooters would be lucky to make one hit out of 5 shots if someone out of the blue charges them.

View: https://youtu.be/AHzw4QvE2Do?feature=shared

 

[dangerranger60]

Tom Givens who has trained CCW students for well over 20 years has kept track of students that later were involved in a DGU. Of the thousands he has trained somewhere over 70 have been involved in a DGU. These are all CCW carriers going about their normal day to day activities. and are about the best stats out there for an average CCW holder.
All of these DGU's happened at arm length to 10 feet, if I remember right none of them fired more than 4 rounds, none involved a reload, most involved a single shot. The only two of his students killed in a gun fight did not have a gun. DR

 

[Cerberus Group]

Tom Givens who has trained CCW students for well over 20 years has kept track of students that later were involved in a DGU. Of the thousands he has trained somewhere over 70 have been involved in a DGU. These are all CCW carriers going about their normal day to day activities. and are about the best stats out there for an average CCW holder.
All of these DGU's happened at arm length to 10 feet, if I remember right none of them fired more than 4 rounds, none involved a reload, most involved a single shot. The only two of his students killed in a gun fight did not have a gun. DR

Yep, and he had...if I recall correctly 10,000.00 on the table for anyone that could come up with a civilian shooting where a reload was used, or a magazine picked up off the deck that changed the outcome...the money is still gathering dust.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

So you guys agree with the anti-gunners then I take it, we don't need more than 10 rounds. Guess none of those guys lived in Portland. 100 yards from my house over 30 shots fired. A block away 27 casings collected ina different shooting. And this is in a neighborhood where the cheapest house is $700k. I'lltake standard capacity mags thank you very much. I don't think those numbers quoted reflect modern day environment either in many places. Decades ago things were different. I go by what I have seen personally and see happening around me.

 

[Cerberus Group]

I counted around 15 rounds fired...plus or minus 1-2. She goes down, they fire while she's on the ground, obviously not a moving target, and still can't get the job done.

Drugs, 10 round restricted magazines have nothing to do with it...accuracy does.

Where's all my Mozambique drill people?

Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't matter what drugs etc. they are on, if the shots go where they need to go it's all over.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Tom Givens who has trained CCW students for well over 20 years has kept track of students that later were involved in a DGU. Of the thousands he has trained somewhere over 70 have been involved in a DGU. These are all CCW carriers going about their normal day to day activities. and are about the best stats out there for an average CCW holder.
All of these DGU's happened at arm length to 10 feet, if I remember right none of them fired more than 4 rounds, none involved a reload, most involved a single shot. The only two of his students killed in a gun fight did not have a gun. DR

It's hard to prove a negative and hard to use ammunition you don't have, especially if you're dead, which very likely was the cause of that death.. or is it "Oh, he's dead. Obviously didn't need any ammunition".

 

[Koda]

if I remember right none of them fired more than 4 rounds, none involved a reload, most involved a single shot.

Virtually every time i read about a shooting in the news, civilian or police, more than 15 rds are used...

Especially police shootings, and they are supposedly trained.

 

[dangerranger60]

So you guys agree with the anti-gunners then I take it, we don't need more than 10 rounds. Guess none of those guys lived in Portland. 100 yards from my house over 30 shots fired. A block away 27 casings collected ina different shooting. And this is in a neighborhood where the cheapest house is $700k. I'lltake standard capacity mags thank you very much. I don't think those numbers quoted reflect modern day environment either in many places. Decades ago things were different. I go by what I have seen personally and see happening around me.

Portland is a war zone. But these are gangs shooting at other gangs. Your real danger in Portland is getting hit by stray bullets. It's like what's the difference between a mass shooting and an active killer?
A mass shooting is one group shooting at another and you are mostly just in their way. Your best response is take cover or get out of there. pulling your own gun is just going to focus attn on you.
An active killer is usually one person trying to kill everyone they see. These people don't see themselves getting out of this alive so there is no advantage to hiding or taking cover.

And both of these are very different from what an average CCW will encounter. unless you are shooting it out with the gangs! DR

 

[dangerranger60]

I counted around 15 rounds fired...plus or minus 1-2. She goes down, they fire while she's on the ground, obviously not a moving target, and still can't get the job done.

Drugs, 10 round restricted magazines have nothing to do with it...accuracy does.

Where's all my Mozambique drill people?

Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't matter what drugs etc. they are on, if the shots go where they need to go it's all over.

Watch the grass! half or more went into the grass!

 

[Joe13]

So what I'm getting so far is:

Shot placement as always is #1

Mo rounds in the mag in yo gun is mo betta cuz the odds of you using that extra mag you carry to offset the weight of your CC on your belt most likely will not get used.

I am fat and need to exercise and train more.






Did I miss anything?

 

[Cerberus Group]

So what I'm getting so far is:

Shot placement as always is #1

Mo rounds in the mag in yo gun is mo betta cuz the odds of you using that extra mag you carry to offset the weight of your CC on your belt most likely will not get used.

I am fat and need to exercise and train more.






Did I miss anything?

No, but don't try to end the thread until it reaches its customary 17 pages, 12 off track discussions, and the 9 vs 45 thingy rears its ugly head for the 4,582nd time