How is this legal?

[trukinbear]

One of the sponsors here, I clicked on a link.

Seriously, a shotgun with a 10" barrel is not just legal, but could be shipped directly to your home without a FFL (except Il, and Ny) - even California?

It looks to me like a SBS requiring a tax stamp, and a FFL. In California it looks like 10 years in prison as I read the laws. What am I missing?

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[Knobgoblin]

Looks like black powder. Or something along those lines.

Like those little garbage derringers you can buy through the mail.

 

[trukinbear]

Looks like black powder. Or something along those lines.

Like those little garbage derringers you can buy through the mail.

That didn't even cross my mind - Krazy either way, and their premier product is a double barrel 12ga pistol that looks all for the world like someone took Grandpa's coach gun and sawed off the barrel, and stock. bubblegum, I've arrested people with exactly that, a sawed off shotgun. Black powder? You'd have to be Krazy

 

[Knobgoblin]

Yup .

Plastic and an unknown powder charge.

 

[Will_White]

That didn't even cross my mind - Krazy either way, and their premier product is a double barrel 12ga pistol that looks all for the world like someone took Grandpa's coach gun and sawed off the barrel, and stock. bubblegum, I've arrested people with exactly that, a sawed off shotgun. Black powder? You'd have to be Krazy

It's just a muzzleloader, carry laws still apply even if the NFA doesn't.

 

[MacReady]

Pretty simple: It's the same company that makes those SBS sawn off shotguns, except no, they aren't legally considered an SBS because they use the legal loophole of muzzleloading blackpowder shotguns being exempt from the barrel length requirement in the 1934 NFA. That's why it's also no FFL required. Modern muzzleloaders and antiques don't require an FFL to transfer.

Without doing further research just looking at it I can guarantee you have to front load with loose ball/powder/wad and theres a nipple on the back of each cylinder like some 'ye olde' streetsweeper. Looks like just a silly fun gun. And there's nothing wrong with that IMO. This wouldn't exist if that law didn't exist because the market would be full of real SBSs

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

The really cool thing is that you lay down your own smoke screen while you use it!

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Black powder? You'd have to be Krazy

Call me "Krazy" , I guess.....

Black powder firearms are still very effective at doing " firearm things. "
None of the targets I have ever shot...or game I have taken , have complained of being hit with a projectile that was shot with black powder....
I have won more than a few shooting matches with my muzzle loaders....and kept myself and others well fed with them.

At one time , my "house gun" was a Uberti copy of a Colt 1860 Army revolver.
It was the largest caliber handgun , that I shot well with , back then.
I shot it often and knew it..and its loading very well.
A .454 lead round ball moving out at around 800 -850 FPS ain't nothing to take lightly.

Now with all that said...
Would I recommend someone to do the same....?
No...as a general rule.

Just like with any firearm...in order to be good with it...you gotta take your time and learn it.
Muzzle loaders / black powder firearms , can be a bit more nuanced , so to speak....
It can be done...but...perhaps not the best choice for most folks nowadays.
Andy

 

[trukinbear]

Pretty simple: It's the same company that makes those SBS sawn off shotguns, except no, they aren't legally considered an SBS because they use the legal loophole of muzzleloading blackpowder shotguns being exempt from the barrel length requirement in the 1934 NFA. That's why it's also no FFL required. Modern muzzleloaders and antiques don't require an FFL to transfer.

Without doing further research just looking at it I can guarantee you have to front load with loose ball/powder/wad and theres a nipple on the back of each cylinder like some 'ye olde' streetsweeper. Looks like just a silly fun gun. And there's nothing wrong with that IMO. This wouldn't exist if that law didn't exist because the market would be full of real SBSs

I do see where they sell fiber wads, but no real mention of black powder. If they're all muzzle load explain why these break at the breech? To install a primer cap?

Call me "Krazy" , I guess.....

Black powder firearms are still very effective at doing " firearm things. "
None of the targets I have ever shot...or game I have taken , have complained of being hit with a projectile that was shot with black powder....
I have won more than a few shooting matches with my muzzle loaders....and kept myself and others well fed with them.

At one time , my "house gun" was a Uberti copy of a Colt 1860 Army revolver.
It was the largest caliber handgun , that I shot well with , back then.
I shot it often and knew it..and its loading very well.
A .454 lead round ball moving out at around 800 -850 FPS ain't nothing to take lightly.

Now with all that said...
Would I recommend someone to do the same....?
No...as a general rule.

Just like with any firearm...in order to be good with it...you gotta take your time and learn it.
Muzzle loaders / black powder firearms , can be a bit more nuanced , so to speak....
It can be done...but...perhaps not the best choice for most folks nowadays.
Andy

I just meant a short (very short) barrel 12 gauge revolver is crazy either way. I didn't mean black powder in general. Sure, flashover to adjacent cylinders would be exciting and all. A shotgun with a 2" barrel is just crazy, call me conservative. And the double barrel 'coach gun' looks like Grandpa's 10 gauge that I made the rookie mistake of cocking both barrels.

 

[trukinbear]

Although since any mention of black powder is in the fine print, I fear that your average person who is interested in firearms that can be mailed to their home, for whatever reason, who buys this is likely to blow themselves up. I can just imagine at least one person who sees gunpowder in a black jug at Sportsman's, thinks it's black powder. 'it kinda looks black ,' So yes, the way this is presented, and advertised isn't targeting black powder enthusiast, but probably the undocumented, and/or felons.

 

[Will_White]

Although since any mention of black powder is in the fine print, I fear that your average person who is interested in firearms that can be mailed to their home, for whatever reason, who buys this is likely to blow themselves up. I can just imagine at least one person who sees gunpowder in a black jug at Sportsman's, thinks it's black powder. 'it kinda looks black ,' So yes, the way this is presented, and advertised isn't targeting black powder enthusiast, but probably the undocumented, and/or felons.

It's targeting people who want an NFA item without the NFA paperwork and transport headaches. Nothing sinister is going on, its just as illegal for a felon to have BP as it is for them to have normal firearms.

 

[Ginocide]

That didn't even cross my mind - Krazy either way, and their premier product is a double barrel 12ga pistol that looks all for the world like someone took Grandpa's coach gun and sawed off the barrel, and stock. bubblegum, I've arrested people with exactly that, a sawed off shotgun. Black powder? You'd have to be Krazy

Blackpowder and muzzleloader firearms are actually not legally recognized as "firearms" in federal law, they're specifically excluded under 18 U.S. Code § 921 (a)(3) along with (a)(16)

(a)(3):

The term 'firearm"'means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

(a)(16):

The term "antique firearm" means—

(a)(16)(C)

any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

It's not a bug, it's a feature! Enjoy it while it lasts.

The same company also makes these pistols, which always looked fun to me:

Diablo 12 Gauge Pistols, Collectors Set, Nickel and Blued Finish with Rosewood Finish Grips, 6 inch barrel. -No FFL Required- | American Gun Craft

americanguncraft.com

 

[trukinbear]

Blackpowder and muzzleloader firearms are actually not legally recognized as "firearms" in federal law, they're specifically excluded under 18 U.S. Code § 921 (a)(3) along with (a)(16)

(a)(3):

(a)(16):


(a)(16)(C)

It's not a bug, it's a feature! Enjoy it while it lasts.

The same company also makes these pistols, which always looked fun to me:

Diablo 12 Gauge Pistols, Collectors Set, Nickel and Blued Finish with Rosewood Finish Grips, 6 inch barrel. -No FFL Required- | American Gun Craft

americanguncraft.com

View attachment 2264541

Since it's in the fine print, I initially missed the black powder part, and the double barrel pistol breaks at the breech, and is made to look like it accepts shotgun shells. I

It's targeting people who want an NFA item without the NFA paperwork and transport headaches. Nothing sinister is going on, its just as illegal for a felon to have BP as it is for them to have normal firearms.

I'm not saying it's legal for a felon, I'm saying their advertising isn't targeting your usual black powder enthusiast.

 

[trukinbear]

This targets black powder enthusiast

 

[trukinbear]

You can read this entire ad and not until in the bottom fine print about California compliance does it ever mention black powder. Most not in California probably wouldn't have bothered to read that. I contend they are not targeting black powder enthusiast, and their average buyer is very disappointed after it arrived.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Speaking only for myself here....

I don't see the shotgun in the OP or the side x side pistols as being marketed to black powder shooters...per-se
I do see 'em being marketed as a "work around " to some stupid ATF rulings / firearm laws .

I also get why the ads have little to no mention of being black powder / muzzle loading firearms...
Lots of misinformation and faulty "wisdom" abound about those types of firearms.

However...
I also think that failure to prominently note that these are black powder firearms / muzzle loaders in the sales copy / ad....
Is damn close to misrepresentation of a product..
Andy

 

[arakboss]

View: https://youtu.be/fet7_WgxGE0?si=lMXZ-haf55296p28

 

[arakboss]

Chain fires here we come.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Chain fires here we come.

Can't say for the shotgun and shot....
However ......

To prevent chain fires in percussion revolvers is easy.
Use the proper size round ball or bullet...One that has a bit of lead "shaved off" when loaded into the cylinder...
Then , if you want , smear a light bit of lube or grease over the cylinder face.
Easy.

Chain fires....while they happen....are much ado about nothing.
They are pretty uncommon...to non existent if you load properly.

As for the shotgun in video...I would guess that a light smear of grease or lube over the cylinder face would prevent chain fires...
Just as if it were a percussion revolver.
I say guess....'cause I have no experience with that particular firearm.
Andy

 

[bradsteen]

From the website:

Caliber: 12 Gauge — load quickly with AGC fast load slugs, front loader/muzzleloader. Conventional 209 inline primer Breech Plug Design BP, suggested load 50gr ffg pellet with AGC fast load slugs