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Drawing conceal carry weapon--when

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by GuyBMeredith, Sep 29, 2014.

  1. GuyBMeredith

    GuyBMeredith Salem, Oregon Active Member

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    I'm not sure whether this is appropriate for this section or should be in Legal and Political. Please feel free to move if needed.

    Any general guidelines on when it is prudent, legal or a bad idea to draw and show a concealed carry weapon as a deterrent without immediate intent to fire?

    Some theoretical situations might be:

    Walking across parking lot with purchases and two or more people on bicycles begin circling you.

    Individual uses bullying tone to suggest s/he would think it funny to release a pit bull with obviously aggressive body language to attack you and your dog, perhaps stepping forward or mimicking your move to leave the area.

    Older teens or adults with skateboards act aggressively surly and crowding passage.

    Panhandler insisting on moving close after being told to keep a distance.
     
  2. IronMonster

    IronMonster Washington Opinionated Member Diamond Supporter

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  3. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie Vancouver Well-Known Member

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    If you're concerned about that stuff, if they really are scenarios you encounter in your everyday life, why not just open carry?
     
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  4. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    When issuing verbal commands prior to shooting in situations where the threat to life is clear and imminent. Otherwise do something else.

    I'd never draw on people I didn't intend to shoot and that means in a situation where they had the ability, opportunity and displayed intent to do serious or fatal injury to myself or someone nearby.

    In Washington pointing a firearm at another person, without a legitimate reason to do so, is an assault.

    Producing a firearm to intimidate or scare people is just asking for trouble. Street criminals can usually tell if you are hesitating and you just might provoke them into striking first if they sense you are bluffing.

    A Mark III or IV-size can of Fox 5.3 OC or (Defense Technologies OC/CS) can be a great less than lethal option. Carry more than one tool in your options kit.

    The amount of discomfort contained in those little cans is difficult to appreciate until you've had some. Anyone who is OC certified will smile ruefully and tell you they'd rather take a Taser ride than get sprayed with that stuff.

    edit: correct Mk II to Mk III typo.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
  5. SKN

    SKN Keizer, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    ORS has very specific language when it comes to the use of physical force and the justified use of deadly physical force. The exact citations escape me at the moment but the scenarios you describe would seem to fit into the 'defense of self or a third party'.

    To paraphrase the statute, you are justified in using physical force (placing your hand on the firearm, which could otherwise be construed as 'menacing'; or drawing the firearm, which could be construed as 'reckless endangerment'; or pointing the firearm, which could be construed as 'pointing without justification'; firing it, which could be construed as assault) when you reasonably believe that the offending party is or is about to use unlawful physical force against you or a third party.

    You may only use that force necessary for your defense and the necessity and reasonableness of your actions will be decided by others in the criminal justice chain. Learn how to describe and articulate threat cues, and be able to explain how and why those influenced your decisions.

    As specified by ORS you may only use deadly physical force, which is defined by ORS, to defend yourself or a third party when you reasonably believe that the offender is or is about to use unlawful deadly physical force against you or the third party. Ability, opportunity, jeopardy and preclusion are key elements here.

    Not a lawyer but I've had a lot of practical experience in using force, and articulating or explaining it. In the end, you should read the statutes and get advice from a lawyer familiar with the issues.

    I also agree, and encourage you to have an alternative force option(s) that provides stand off capability. It is a good idea for the scenarios you've outlined.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014
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  6. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie Vancouver Well-Known Member

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  7. GuyBMeredith

    GuyBMeredith Salem, Oregon Active Member

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    Thanks for the replies.

    I do not care to open carry as I feel it makes one a target and gives forewarning and therefore advantage to bad actors. Surprise counts for a lot.

    I have carried Fox Labs sprays, but decided that their usefulness is limited, especially indoors, on trains and all as bystanders may have problems with asthma, other respiratory issues or alergies. Also, they are not good in the wind.

    A friend suggested wasp spray. It is thick and shoots about 12 feet in an almost stringy mass.

    I dress with shirt tucked so my carry is under a tucked shirt and slow to draw. If I am in a quickly developing situation like being approached by skate boarders who may want to cap off an exciting day by bashing someone's (my) head with a board as has happened from time to time, if there is credible threat by an owner of a vicious dog (again has happened from time to time), if I am in a situation where I can reasonably expect to be attacked I need to understand at what point I can prepare for active defense. That is the reason for the question.

    Also, I see I need to think more about how to verbally diffuse a situation. Some comments or warnings may cause escalation as well.
     
  8. SKN

    SKN Keizer, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I know Fox products to be effective but I'm not familiar with their dispersal mechanism. If cross or secondary contamination is a concern to you then find out if they offer a direct stream dispersal instead of a mist, if that's what you're currently carrying. Use of a force application tool, no matter its nature or whether it effects innocent parties, will always be judged by those charged with that responsibility by its necessity and reasonableness.

    Verbalization models you may decide to use should be civil, credible by tone and volume, direct, rehearsed, and unambiguous. Depending on the intended audience or surroundings they may even have to be bi- or multilingual and should be coupled with non-verbal communications (body language) that supplements and reinforces the verbalization ie, posture, arm and hand positions, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
  9. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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  10. GuyBMeredith

    GuyBMeredith Salem, Oregon Active Member

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    I used to carry a stream patten Fox product. However, after testing it by spraying it into my shower and finding it made three rooms of the house uninhabitable I realized the possibly fatal effects it could have on vulnerable by standers in any enclosed or semi-enclosed area.

    Choice of verbal response is critical. Could just be perceived as a challenge to a drugged out or macho type.

    And the only phrase in Chinese that would quickly come to mind would push the average Chinese national into committing a suicidal attack. :(
     
  11. fyrediver

    fyrediver Seattle Active Member

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    [/QUOTE=A friend suggested wasp spray. It is thick and shoots about 12 feet in an almost stringy mass.[/QUOTE]

    Your friend is delusional with no experience in the world and they've bought into a bad urban myth. Unless you're being attacked by wasps, wasp spray won't help. It's designed to attack wasps not mammals.

    Stick with a product that was made to work on humans. Pepper spray of some sort. There's even "gel" spray that comes out in a stream rather than a mist and some even have dyes to mark the attacker like a bank dye pack.



    Seattle story of couple attacked in their home. Husband sprayed assailant with wasp spray and it didn't even SLOW his attacker down. Not even a little bit.
    http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022516445_boonstraupdatexml.html?syndication=rss
     
  12. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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    It's all about the verbage!

    So...when is it okay to draw your firearm? Well I guess it really depends on your intent...a lot of people will say when you perceive a threat or that you can only draw when you intend to shoot someone- but I disagree.

    Before we get into this, we have to discuss the conditions. If you hear a bump in the night in your home, I'd expect you to grab a gun and search your house at the low-ready. I've had a firearm in my hand, but in a coat pocket or under an arm (arms folded) while doing things in high-risk areas that I cannot immediately leave from (i.e. Getting gas while my family is in the car at night). I also might have a gun in my hand and indexed, pointed down and behind my door while conversing with strangers at my doorstep. Here, I have drawn my firearm and am ready to encounter a threat...but I am still concealing it as to not draw attention to myself and to attempt to still keep the element of surprise. I am not threatening anyone with it or attempting to intimidate anyone with it (unless, of course, I actually catch someone in my house while searching)...these are the key factors when you are dealing with a firearm (intimidating, threatening, etc.).

    What people (civilians AND police) have an issue with is the verbage of DISPLAYING a firearm. Technically, if I am selling a gun in a WalMart parking lot- I may open the trunk of my car and show it to him/her. Is this not "displaying" a firearm? What about carrying a slung rifle while hunting? Bringing my guns from my house to my car?

    What I'm trying to get you to get away from is hesitating drawing a firearm. If you walk to your car, hear a BANG!, draw to the low-ready, take cover and assess only to find out it was a backfire from an old pickup- did you commit a crime? I'd think not. While on the reverse, if someone says I stepped on their foot and I lifted up my shirt to show them a holsted gun and said "what are you going to do about it?" - Did I commit a crime? I'd think so.

    Just don't point it at people. Don't try to intimidate people with it (even holstered) and be aware of your surroundings at all times while carrying...that's it!
     
  13. GuyBMeredith

    GuyBMeredith Salem, Oregon Active Member

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    fyrediver,

    Pepper spray is not all it is cracked up to be. Try spraying that product demonstrated in the video for us on multiple assailants in your house. Stand back in your living room and spray to the open door. My experience is that there is enough back spray in even a stream to make your entire room and maybe a couple of others unbearable.

    I remember one particular news article where a bad actor had abducted a woman in a car, she used spray on him and he just got ticked off enough to stab her through the haze. I do not know the quality of the product she used, though. Using something like Fox Labs products in that small space would leave both of them in pain.
     
  14. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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  15. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

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    The only time to pull a firearm or display a firearm is:
    When your life or another's is in immediate danger and it is the only resort that will save a life. No other reason would be justifiable, and could get you charged with crimes.
    It is pretty clear in the when and why.
    Inside your home is a little more lenient, but use is the same rules.

    If you pull a firearm under most of the circumstances you stated above you will most likely lose your CHL and possibly have charges placed on you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
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  16. BlindedByScience

    BlindedByScience Vancouver WA Well-Known Member

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    Simple answer - multiple assailants in my home get shot until they are no longer a threat.

    Waving a gun around is a good way to go to jail. OC spray, situational awareness, verbal commands.....these techniques have to be part of your overall defense arsenal....just like your carry gun. I make it a point to keep looking around and do everything possible to not get into a sketchy situation in the first place. Best possible answer, as long as it's possible.
     
  17. fyrediver

    fyrediver Seattle Active Member

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    Been there, done that, more than once, probably encounter it again, although the use of Tasers has reduced PD spraying it. Not pleasant but still FAR better than having the Coroner carry me or mine out in a bag. You're discussing life and death. A little discomfort or even significant pain is far superior to death -- at least for me.

    EVERY weapon has limitations. There are numerous stories of people being shot in lethal locations and continuing to fight. There are no weapons that are a cure to every scenario. One must use the weapon in light of it's limitations. Just because some people fought through the pain of pepper spray doesn't eliminate it from use, if it did then NO police department would use it.

    My MAIN point is to debunk the "wasp spray is a great weapon." It is not, nor will it ever be. I'd like to see people stop spreading the myth because it will get someone killed. In fact, if you read the article it almost has and recently too.
     
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  18. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Retreat if at all possible.
    Deter - pee your pants, curse, cry, laugh hysterically, hit em with OC gell-foam from 20 feet.
    Reduce - the final solution.
    Alternative force option , two OC choices, GEL and FOAM.
    For the drugged, suicidal Chinese National Zombie.
    Spray 20 feet away. TsingTao!
     
  19. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    GEEEZUZ H CA RYST
    If all this is happening where you work,you are fool to not move you work to somewhere safe.If not possible then a coat or vest with ample pockets to actually hold the gun in your hand is necessary
    You have to think about your situation.If there are too many incidents whee bodily harm is involved,maybe you need to rethink your priorities
    No way in hell I am going to try to work where there is dog attacks as well as violent crimes.
    Just stupid to put yourself in that situation
     
  20. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    A lot of good information presented in the responses here. With the training I've received, I wouldn't draw my gun in public unless I believed my life or the life of someone else was in immediate danger. In the case of the situations you mentioned, I may put my hand on my gun, but keep it holstered and under cover, but ready to draw, if the situation escalated.

    I was in a situation about 2 years ago where a very aggressive dog approached my wife, my daughter and I. My wife and I stood between the dog and our daughter in her stroller. The owner was off in the distance and was paying no attention to the situation. As it continued to escalate, I moved my hand onto my pistol, ready to draw. But the dog started to back off and finally, the jack a$$ owner opened his eyes and saw what was going on and rather calmly called his little precious back. That's the closest I've come to drawing my gun in public in 20 years of carrying.

    Ultimately, I don't want to deal with all of the legal issues unless the situation really, really calls for it. I don't want to lose my permit, get arrested or get sued because I drew my gun on someone that wasn't what I perceive to be an immediate threat to my life.