Dangers using cast load data for plated or fmj rifle bullet reduced loads.

[arakboss]

This youtuber thinks it's ok to use cast load data for reduced loads with FMJ rifle bullets. Anybody here disagree, if so why? Anybody done this what were your results?

Skip to 15:20 mark for discussion about using FMJ with reduced cast load data.

Read More

 

[red442joe]

Hmmm...dint watch, however...
I suppose you coud work your way Down.
I'd prolly look at book Starting charges, check with the powder maker, and call it good.

Joe

 

[whiskeybill]

There are differences within what is technically termed as "plated" bullets" and FMJ bullets. There are some plated bullets that are rated for a higher velocity than others. Berry's makes some handgun bullets that are rated for jacketed bullet velocities, and the plating is thicker. Some other bullets have a thinner plating, and should be loaded to cast bullet velocities. There is a chance the plating can strip off the bullet and remain in the barrel if loaded to jacketed bullet velocities. (We don't want a barrel obstruction after all). These bullets were developed to reduce / eliminate leading in the barrel and to address airborne lead particulates for indoor ranges. A full metal jacket bullet is really a traditional "cup & core" bullet. Berry's Manufacturing will list recommended velocities for their bullets on the box. The old Rainier Ballistics bullets were all recommended for cast bullet velocities. If you want to shoot a cast bullet at higher velocities, use a good hard alloy and a gas check. Otherwise, use a good old cup & core jacketed bullet.

Regards,
Bill

 

[Certaindeaf]

Didn't watch but since they are supposedly safe reduced lead bullet loads my thinking would be a chance of stuck bullets at the very lowest range (usually not published though) using jacketed bullets.

 

[03A3Sporter]

There is no danger using reduced loads with jacketed bullets I have done it countless times , what you can't reasonably expect is any kind of reliable expansion.

 

[ron]

Certain powders should not be used for reduced loads. Check the powder manufacture load data. Some will list
a minimum charge weight.

 

[03A3Sporter]

It is not so much an issue of a minimum charge weight, rather it is a matter of volume, the reason that some pistol / shotgun powders such as Red Dot, 2400 and some others are more suitable for using in cartridges for reduced loads is the amount of space they occupy in the case due to their bulky nature.

Even then some powders such as 2400 which have been old standards for decades in cast bullet circles have been removed from the data of many cartridges in the latest Lyman cast bullet handbook not because they are unsafe but because in our current litigious day and age , there is too much room and the potential exists for an overcharge .

To put it more simply Lyman is attempting to protect themselves from a liability suit.

Certain powders should not be used for reduced loads. Check the powder manufacture load data. Some will list
a minimum charge weight.

 

[WillametteWill]

I have to think there is a difference between plated and jacketed for this use. I'm starting to play with reduced loads for plated 30-30 rounds (Berry's) but would not consider these with a jacketed bullet. From reviewing load data between jacketed and lead / plated bullets over the years for handguns you can see the pattern in powder charge difference. To me the physics of it would indicate that a jacketed bullet is harder to push down a barrel than cast / plated so pressure curves are going to be different, possibly significantly.

IIRC Berry's says that you can use load data for lead or jacketed within the velocity limitations. This seemed a bit strange to me since sometimes these can be quite different (but often with overlap). I try and keep loads for handguns within this overlap area and have had good success. With rifle loads they use completely different powders for the low power loads so I'm sticking with plated only and hope to chrono these in the next month or two. My $.02 and good thread, looking forward to learning from others here.

 

[red442joe]

There are warnings against over reducing H110/W296.

Joe

 

[03A3Sporter]

That is a warning applied to all powders .

There are warnings against over reducing H110/W296.

Joe

 

[arakboss]

There is no danger using reduced loads with jacketed bullets I have done it countless times , what you can't reasonably expect is any kind of reliable expansion.

This is what I was hoping to here. I was worried that the FMJs would have more friction sliding down the bore and potentially raise pressures. I will begin at the start loads and work my way up. All these loads will be for plinking so expansion isn't a concern.

 

[arakboss]

I have to think there is a difference between plated and jacketed for this use. I'm starting to play with reduced loads for plated 30-30 rounds (Berry's) but would not consider these with a jacketed bullet. From reviewing load data between jacketed and lead / plated bullets over the years for handguns you can see the pattern in powder charge difference. To me the physics of it would indicate that a jacketed bullet is harder to push down a barrel than cast / plated so pressure curves are going to be different, possibly significantly.

IIRC Berry's says that you can use load data for lead or jacketed within the velocity limitations. This seemed a bit strange to me since sometimes these can be quite different (but often with overlap). I try and keep loads for handguns within this overlap area and have had good success. With rifle loads they use completely different powders for the low power loads so I'm sticking with plated only and hope to chrono these in the next month or two. My $.02 and good thread, looking forward to learning from others here.

"To me the physics of it would indicate that a jacketed bullet is harder to push down a barrel than cast / plated so pressure curves are going to be different, possibly significantly."

That was my main concern. I am guessing the difference in friction may not be that great.

 

[03A3Sporter]

Depending on the velocities you are looking for , I would say it is more a matter of economy IMO given the current prices of bullets, if you are casting its way cheaper to load cast and shoot 1500 fps than to shoot FMJ at 1500 FPS.

Back when 22 Ammo went stupid after Sandy Hook , I started shooting 223 loads with blue dot because I had a ready supply of FMJ 55 grain bullets , and for what it is worth I was using blue dot to shoot right at 3000 fps as well . Pistol powders can be extremely versatile in that respect.

This is what I was hoping to here. I was worried that the FMJs would have more friction sliding down the bore and potentially raise pressures. I will begin at the start loads and work my way up.

 

[arakboss]

Depending on the velocities you are looking for , I would say it is more a matter of economy IMO given the current prices of bullets, if you are casting its way cheaper to load cast and shoot 1500 fps than to shoot FMJ at 1500 FPS.

Back when 22 Ammo went stupid after Sandy Hook , I started shooting 223 loads with blue dot because I had a ready supply of FMJ 55 grain bullets , and for what it is worth I was using blue dot to shoot right at 3000 fps as well . Pistol powders can be extremely versatile in that respect.

223 is a great example of where economy may favor the reduced loads during the current powder shortage. Rifle powders are hard to come by these days and selling at a premium. It usually takes close to a full case of typical 223 powders to load one. FMJ vs Cast bullets cost won't be a factor in 223 loads. Do you recall approx how many grains of blue dot you used in the 223?

 

[03A3Sporter]

Look up a member of the accurate reloading forums who went by the handle of Seafire , he published a lot of information on 223 loads using Bluedot.

223 is a great example of where economy may favor the reduced loads during the current powder shortage. Rifle powders are hard to come by these days and selling at a premium. It usually takes close to a full case of typical 223 powders to load one. FMJ vs Cast bullets cost won't be a factor in 223 loads. Do you recall approx how many grains of blue dot you used in the 223?

 

[clanhanson]

Follow published loads only. Never deviate outside of published limits. Don't use "homebrews" from internet forums or loads you heard were good from people at the LGS. This isn't a batch of cider.

 

[arakboss]

I am leaning towards using imr4227 for reduced rifle loads and buying an 8 pounder of it. I have the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and it's hard to find a rifle cartridge where they don't have data for 4227. In 223 they are calling for around 11gr with 55gr cast bullet. That may be a good cartridge to try first. Then I want to try 308 and maybe my Savage HB chambered in 22-250. I bought that rifle because it was super cheap on clearance at Dicks but then I read that barrel life is short because the bullets are generally run fast in the 22-250 loads. I imagine the barrel life would be extended by running FMJs at cast bullet velocities.

 

[arakboss]

Follow published loads only. Never deviate outside of published limits. Don't use "homebrews" from internet forums or loads you heard were good from people at the LGS. This isn't a batch of cider.

Would you recommend I wear a helmet when riding my bicycle?

 

[clanhanson]

Would you recommend I wear a helmet when riding my bicycle?

That's up to you. Bicycles don't generate 50,000 psi right by you face and hand.

And yes I do if you're riding offroad!

 

[P7M13]

I use Unique / Universal in 308 and 30-30 with 110gr plated rounds from Precision (basically 30 carbine projectiles).
Over on LRH, search reduced loads and there's another shooter there who experienced a detonation with a reduced load that had been thought to be OK.
Point being, you cannot just use any powder.
Some powder burn is affected by surface area, and will be much faster with 50% case fill or lower amounts because there's a lot more exposed surface area - like lighting gasoline in a saucer vs a test tube. One goes FOOF! and the other has a bit more control to the flame.
Some powders are more affected by pressure, and burn better at that pressure.
General rule of thumb with most powders is don't be below 80% case fill and not a good idea if you're above 105%. Some are renown for nasty pressure spikes when overfilled.
Edit to add: I see you are considering 4227. If there are published reduced loads, means they've been tested extensively and I wouldn't worry.
I have used cast bullet data for copper jacketed projectiles (not plated) and never encountered a problem, BUT, those are in my guns, not yours. YMMV.
2nd edit: never gave much thought to reduced loads in a gas gun. I think it would cause cycle failures. You could tune your buffer for that, such as one for reduced loads, one for full power.