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ACRs, SCARs and XCRs

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by MikeSettles, Jun 13, 2011.

  1. MikeSettles

    MikeSettles Vancouver, Washington Active Member

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    The "Next Generation" of military-style rifles:

    Opinions & experiences?

    I have been interested for about two years; found out that Remington developed a lube-impregnated coating for the ACR which (supposedly) extends barrel life & doesn't require additional lubrication.

    Told my wife that I want one for my birthday, and she hasn't said "no" yet!:)
     
  2. anubismp

    anubismp W.WA Member

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    My two cents having handled all and owned the XCR. I liked the XCR but felt the company is very spotty and misses projected dates or says they have a project in development and then doesnt bring it out. The rifle itself is rock solid though. You can find one for a good price. I cant justify the price of the SCAR or ACR yet and they have yet to bring out real accessories people want and have been asking for forever ( other cals, twists etc) I owned a sig 556(poop) then an xcr and now a century 93 and honestly theres nothing they do that my M4 doesnt. I clean with brakekleen and lube with Mobil1 synth so my overhead is cheap for running DI over piston though it is an option available to me. If you just want the newest coolest then i think I'd go ACR as it feels more solid to me and is built by a company that will still be in business at the end of the year I'd vote SCAR after that then XCR only due to ROBARM as a company and not due to the rifle itself again. But thats my opinion and worth what you paid for it. Do you have a CMP garand yet? thats a good investment on a great rifle :)
     
  3. MikeSettles

    MikeSettles Vancouver, Washington Active Member

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    CMP Garand? Nope: Thinking about it. My brother bought one back in the early nineties. I think that he has hardly used it.

    I'm going first for ACR (or possibly XCR - I heard before the same as you said about the company and the rifle: I'm put off because of the company.), and looking forward to the new KelTec Shotgun (KSG). Also, perhaps a piston-M4 for my wife (she won't like cleaning the sludge out of the bolt carrier). Also possibly the KelTec RFB for a 7.62mm battle rifle.
     
  4. jordanvraptor

    jordanvraptor Oregon City, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I have only held the SCAR and it seemed like a well made carbine. I don't think its better than an M4 but if you want a next generation military rifle you can say the SCAR was used by special forces for a brief time in the Long War...
     
  5. Schwabdl

    Schwabdl Hillsboro Active Member

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    didnt all of these get passed on and contracts resigned for m4's guess that would make the next generation rifle the m4 for a while
     
  6. anubismp

    anubismp W.WA Member

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    I was pretty much kidding about the garand since its not what you asked but seriously you should have one. I'd say go out see if you can hold the SCAR ACR and XCR (XCR may be a harder find) and see what you like. Get on the fn acr and xcr forums and see what people say about the rifles and the companies responses if any. I think they will all be accurate, reliable, good weapons but as I said before I dont think you'll get anything a good M4 cant do.
     
  7. MikeSettles

    MikeSettles Vancouver, Washington Active Member

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    I'm in Afghanistan (leaving next month), and have been out to several COPs where ODAs (SF Operational Detachment "A") live. Seen that they carry a mix of SCAR, M4, M14/UBR, etc.

    Didn't talk with them about the SCAR - missed my opportunity there.

    Chatted with one of their armorers in his domain: He had several M14s, which I was happy to disassemble/reassemble (carried one in USMC Boot Camp, 1970): He didn't know about the selector switch knob - for changing it to a selective-fire weapon. Good chat with him: They have lots of toys that they can use on whatever mission. :)

    Two problems with the M4: 1st is rugged reliability. If you butt-stroke someone, it's probably going to be out-of-action due to bending the buffer tube. The second problem is the ammo - 5.56mm is still too light for taking out bad guys at extended ranges, and the M4 (though you can use it to 600 meters for "Area Targets") is really only accurate to about 300 meters. This problem won't be fixed until there is a caliber change. I vote for 6.5mm Grendel (or something very similar).

    By the way: The Army has let a contract to upgrade or replace 600,000 M4s and M16A2s to M4A1s: Change from burst-fire back to full-auto, replace the direct-gas impingement with short-stroke piston, heavier barrel, and make the controls ambidextrous. (It will take 10 years, beginning in 2014)(Army Times, 2 May 2011)

    Cheers!
     
  8. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    My SEAL friend says some guys had SCARS in Iraq when he was there earlier this year. He said the feeling was 50-50 on them. His preference was his SAW but that is a topic for a different discussion! :cool:

    I got to handle an ACR this weekend. The salesperson was really knowledgeable and took it down for me so I could see it in a field stripped condition then put it back together for me. It appears to be very well made, feels rugged, a tad heavier than an M4. I didn't like how the buttstock length adjusted but I am sure that I could get by that once I had it adjusted to my preferences. All in all I would buy one tomorrow if I had the extra money. However, that $2200 price tag defintely makes you think long and hard on just how much you really think it's worth.
     
  9. MikeSettles

    MikeSettles Vancouver, Washington Active Member

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    I was home on R&R in April; attended the big gun show in Portland. Keith's had examples of the ACR in both basic ($1800) and enhanced ($2100) versions. Another vendor had an XCR. I looked at them all briefly: All heavier than an M4, weight more to the front (short-stroke piston system in each). Didn't get to operate them as the PDX shows all require the actions to be locked down.

    M4-clones are modular, but you can't change calibers without armorer's tools (unless you just swap uppers). Looking forward to one weapon with 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, and (at some future date) 6.5mm (maybe Grendel?). I know that the ACR and XCR are both supposed to go there. Not sure about the SCAR.

    And the SAW IS damned fun to shoot!
     
  10. speelyei

    speelyei Willamette Valley Active Member

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    I got to shoot the SCAR. It was fun, and the muzzle brake was very effective. the pencil thin barrel was red hot after two shots. Was it more fun than a G3? Nope. Was it more fun than a Mini 30? Nope. Would I like it if I had one? Sure. Would I spend more than $500 on one? Never.
     
  11. Tactical Design

    Tactical Design Seattle Member

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    I know I am a little late to this thread, but what the heck. Here is my 2 cents. Nothing is in any particular order, but here it is:

    When I was in the military way back when, I was issued a M4 with the first gen SOPMOD kit. I never had a single malfunction that wasn't caused by a faulty magazine. I have put 10s of thousands of rounds through it without a hitch. As long as I maintained her, she treated me right and that even included time in the gulf. As I was Navy, she got plenty wet and salty. Again as long as I kept her clean, she was GTG. After I got out, I have owned many ARs, DI and piston variants. Both ran fine, however my round counts paled in comparison to my old M4. I have owned an XCR and FS2000 and currently own an ACR.

    I bought the XCR about 2 years before the ACR came out. The XCR was a fairly solidly built rifle. Simple system, and great ergonomics. The XCR also handled well. It was a soft shooting rifle when I had the gas tuned right and I was getting 1-2 MOA with PMC .223 55g ammo. The only malfunctions I had were due to improper gas settings. I did have a few complaints though. Customer service was lacking and getting parts was challenging. The take down latch on the back of the upper receiver did activate on more than one occasion after it bumped my gear. Not a good thing especially since the guts of the rifle aren't connected mechanically after they are removed. THe bolt, bolt carrier and op rod are independent of each other. It's a bad day if you drop it at night... The trigger group was garbage, but I hear they have fixed that. The barrel was connected to the receiver with a single Allan bolt. Mine never backed out, but it seemed a little weak to me. I also had their folding stock on mine with the extension tube adapter with CTR stock. It stayed closed through tension, and not very well. It had a little wobble to it so I had to adjust the stock to make it work. Only problem was after the adjustment it wasn't fully straight again. The charging handle is in a good location, however it really stuck out and got caught on my gear and dug unto my side. Barrel was a 1:9 twist, which wasn't a problem as I was shooting 55 grain ammo, but 1:8 or 1:7 would have been better.

    On to the ACR. Solid construction and ergonomically superior to the SCAR. Is it light weight? Not really. I will get the barrel worked down to a 14.5 to help with that. It's too front heavy right now. I have both the basic kit and the enhanced. The enhanced rail should be a bit longer similar to the basic hand guard. Came with MBUS. Not a bad set of BUIS but for the price of the rifle it should have come with TROYs. I have had one malfunction that was due to a magazine issue. Shoots about the same as the XCR. Zero is off some if I take out the barrel and put it back on. Lower receiver should have been made of aluminum not plastic. The MOE grip is a bit small for my hand and I would like to upgrade to a MIAD. Like the XCR the barrel is 1:9. Not cool for an "Adaptive" rifle. Take down is a piece of cake and well thought out. Folding stock is solid and works great. Safety selector is pretty lame and should be something more solid like the BAD *** selector with a 45 degree throw. Hopefully Bushmaster will come out with more kit and barrel/caliber options soon. I am particularly interested in the 7.62x39 with the AK mag. Not sure if they will do it, but I have my fingers crossed. Overall impression of the ACR is good. Better ergonomics than the AR, more compact, easier to clean and comfortable to shoot. It is not as soft as a DI AR, but not a huge deal killer. The trigger is not as good, but they are coming out with aftermarket triggers for the ACR which should fix that. Lastly, the ACR is not battle tested so only time will tell how they hold up.

    I have shot the SCAR side by side with my ACR. I loved how the SCAR shot. Better trigger than the ACR and easier to keep rounds on target. Nice light weight rifle, however I don't like the feel of the stock. Too flimsy if you ask me. Barrel change out not as quick as the ACR, but who cares. Ergonomics very similar to the AR which is not that great IMO. ACR wins that category hands down. Charging handle sticks out too far and reciprocates unlike the XCR and ACR. I don't like that especially when you are in awkward shooting positions. The SCAR Mk16 is battle proven and well tested. Parts compatibility with the Mk17 is a plus. Is it that much better than an AR? SOCOM doesn’t think so and the SCAR Mk16 program came to a screeching halt. SCAR Mk17 are still GTG. I talked to some of my boys who are still in and they weren't all that thrilled with the SCAR-L for many of the reasons I stated above. If I had the disposable income, I would invest in a SCAR 17s, but I don't so I won't.

    Anyway, kind of a ramble, but there you have it.
     
  12. MikeSettles

    MikeSettles Vancouver, Washington Active Member

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    Tactical,

    I have ordered an ACR Enhanced - paying in installments right now.

    One of the selling points for me was the Remington proprietary coating, which supposedly precludes wet-lube, and allows just hot soapy water for cleaning. Remington reputedly claims that the coating, used inside the barrel, doubles barrel life over chrome-lining.

    So, my question to you (having experience with the piece): Have you used wet-lube, or just run it dry? Do you use the soapy-water cleaning method, and if so how's that working.

    I've heard that the ODA's who have used the SCAR are about 50-50 on it. In April, in Afghanistan, I saw some ODA folks heading out on mission - some carried the SCAR, others M4s or other weapons. I didn't discuss the weapon with them, though I had a good conversation with their 18D armorer about M14s and such.

    Cheers!
     
  13. Tactical Design

    Tactical Design Seattle Member

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    The coating is nice, but will have to prove itself over time. I am old school and I still clean everything with CLP. I'll give the soap and water a try some day. That being said, I have not cleaned it the past three times I have gone out and it has run like a champ. Congrats on your purchase!
     
  14. MikeSettles

    MikeSettles Vancouver, Washington Active Member

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    Do you use any lube on it?

    I understand about being Old School: I started our with Hoppe's #9 & Lubriplate on my M14 in Boot Camp; have used LSA/RBC, and finally CLP.

    When I get my ACR, I propose to try soap & water and no wet lube to test it out. You mentioned that removing and installing the barrel seemed to affect the zero. I suppose that I should document this also.
     
  15. Tactical Design

    Tactical Design Seattle Member

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    Every so often I will use a product called CorrosionX on it after I clean it with CLP. It is a lubricant and puts a protective coating on it. I buy mine at True Value. Good stuff, just don't over do it. When I say the zero was off, it was off about a half inch at 50 yards. Made a few clicks on the T-1 and was GTG.
     
  16. MikeSettles

    MikeSettles Vancouver, Washington Active Member

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    .5 inch at 50 yards: I'm interested in the 300 meter zero - this would have it off 3 inches at 300. Perhaps not significant in an assault rifle, but important to know.

    Thanks!
     
  17. Iceberg

    Iceberg Forest Grove Active Member

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    Now that ACR prices have droped, I ordered a Basic model (not the new ORC) in black yesterday. GB had them for $1450 which is much lower than I have seen this last year at gun shows and shops. Wholesale Sports had both the desert tan SCAR 16 ($2700) and the ACR Basic in desert tan ($1700) in stock a couple of weeks ago, so was able to handle both side by side. The SCAR was not worth and additional $1000 (or $1250) over the ACR.

    Bushmaster is now selling the enhanced stock assys on their website.

    http://www.bushmaster.com/products.asp?cat=11

    I plan on picking up the Telescoping/Folding Stock stock assy, which I like better than the std stock, for my rifle. I also like the std handguard better than the short tacticle handguard that comes w/ the enhanced model. Bushmaster now sells the basic model w/ the telescoping/folding stock assy. Anyway, this is the price point that the ACR should have been brought out at.
     
  18. Iceberg

    Iceberg Forest Grove Active Member

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    I picked my basic black ACR up yesterday from Coctailer and really like it; my new rifle came w/ three MagPul 30 Rd mags and a huge Bushmaster hard case. I installed the included MagPul Mbus sights on it along w/ my new IOR Valdada 3x25mm CQB optic & now can't wait to get it to the range. I have a Telescoping/Folding Stock stock assy on order from Bushmaster and plan on buying either a 6.8 SPC or 7.62x39 conversion for it when they come out with them.
     
  19. Tactical Design

    Tactical Design Seattle Member

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    Congrats on your new purchase!
     
  20. del_and_bones

    del_and_bones Anchorage, AK Physics Pirate

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    Congrats on the purchase! I was eyeing one until I started a 300BLK SBR build.
    Do you mean 7.62x39? 7.62x51 NATO won't fit through the magwell.