.45ACP not enough?

[Andy54Hawken]

It behooves one to practice with whatever gun or caliber they use.
Practice as in :
With the load that works best in your gun ...By best I mean :
Functions consistently and the one you can get the most hits / control with.
When you are tired , with your "off hand" , in poor lightening , off the bench...
Always keeping control of your gun , when you are sitting , walking , using the restroom...
Learning the best way to draw and re-holster you gun , in a smooth , safe manner...

You should practice enough that your movements and usage of your gun become second nature...a muscle memory , as it were.

What gun , caliber , holster etc...is best determined by you and your situation.
A .22 that you are comfortable with , beats a .45 that you aren't comfortable with.
Andy

 

[turq]

"using the restroom" ...and re-holstering.

huuumh?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

"using the restroom" ...and re-holstering.

huuumh?

As in practice in keeping control of your handgun ( on your person ) while using the restroom...
And ( Separate thought here ) as much as it is important in practicing a smooth , safe draw of your pistol...its important to be able to re-holster it , just as safe and smooth....
Andy

 

[bbbass]

Say you're not a cop. Say some nut starts road raging you and nails the brakes in front of you. Pretty common. What can you do? Backup is N/A. Can't back up due to traffic. Gotta John Wayne it. He steps out with a gun. Do you shoot through your own windshield and risk ricochets and glass in your own eyes? I don't think so. "If" ( and that is a huge IF), time and vehicle placement allow, floor it and flatten the guy.

Well, I may have an arse and an opinion that is full of it... but I think you answered your own question. Unlikely, in such traffic and situation of brakes slammed on in front of me as you describe that there will be room to maneuver the front end of the vehicle to bear on target. And the raging madman is unlikely to step in between the vehicles. Otherwise I agree to run his keister over if possible.

But yes, I have shot thru windshields as part of an IDPA scenario just so we could learn how bullets and windshields react. In either direction, going out or coming in, all the bullets of some 40-50 shooters made small holes in the windshields we used. No glass in eyes, but I always wear safety glasses when driving, so there's that. IMO there's no need to fear shooting thru windshield glass... it's not going to blow apart as they show in the movies.

In your scenario, I give you another choice... roll down the window and shoot back. We discussed in this forum not long ago a case where a man did just that, killed the perp and survived. He shot weak hand out the window... pretty dandy. Sorry I can't find the link to the thread.

I will give you that a 4000lb car can be a lethal weapon. Obviously. And I too would run that sucker down if that seemed to be the best option. But IMO as in all cases, the choice of weapon/force applied depends on what is needed in any particular situation. I'm keeping my options open and my brain engaged. Thanx for the tip.

bb

 

[bbbass]

As in practice in keeping control of your handgun ( on your person ) while using the restroom...
And ( Separate thought here ) as much as it is important in practicing a smooth , safe draw of your pistol...its important to be able to re-holster it , just as safe and smooth....
Andy

Don't shoot your "one-eye" out!!

We had a scenario a few years back where supposedly the intended vic was sitting on the john when the dobads busted in the door... it was a hoot. Re-holstering is always monitored for safety at IDPA shoots. I've see more than a few pieces of clothing get caught in a trigger guard. CC shooters need to practice sweeping/holding clothing out of the way!!! Too many are too lazy or complacent to use two hands. Use one hand if you need to, but do it right!

 

[wp4]

"using the restroom" ...and re-holstering.

huuumh?

When "reholstering", if you get the tip of your gun caught in your zipper your gonna hate it! Especially easy to do if your gun barrel looks like an anteater!

Of course, I wouldn't know because my gun is a very short one!

I'm pretty sure that's what he meant....

 

[bbbass]

A doctor, after a physical exam, is able to state that we all have, um, "opinions" I try to make sure my opinion isn't full of the same stuff that comes out of the other thing we all have.

I remember you now... You just can't help yourself can you?

 

[bbbass]

When "reholstering", if you get the tip of your gun caught in your zipper your gonna hate it! Especially easy to do if your gun barrel looks like an anteater!

Of course, I wouldn't know because my gun is a very short one!

I'm pretty sure that's what he meant....

Oh man, I missed that one... really am tired... giving up for the night.

 

[po18guy]

At the Caliber Press survival seminars in the 80s, they showed postmortem pics of a perp shot 33 times with a 9. Some guys just have to be weighted down with lead.

 

[CamoDeafie]

.45 caliber zipping at 3,000+ fps probably better than .45 caliber putting out at 900fps?

Maybe we should arm officers with rifles/carbines as daily carry as opposed to handguns?

Shot placement, training, mindset all goes in.

Not that long ago it was taught that .38 specials were OK and .357 Magnums were a bit on the overkill, with Magnums being connoted akin to "Dirty Harry" type of vigilant justice
Then there was the FBI thing with the 10mm, then downloaded/shortened to .40 SW because of recoil issues...

And now cops are going back to carrying as much ammo as possible for 9mm-.45ACP depending on agencies...

With that said, I guess it also depends on what the departments allow in terms of bullet choices, and in terms of calibers and approved handguns/firearms.

 

[cigars]

I just hang out with :
John Wayne...
Lee Marvin...
Steve McQueen
Clint Eastwood..
Bruce Lee...
Chuck Norris...
Andy

And of course.....Cigars (for comic relief).

 

[bbbass]

.45 caliber zipping at 3,000+ fps probably better than .45 caliber putting out at 900fps?

Maybe we should arm officers with rifles/carbines as daily carry as opposed to handguns?

.454 Casull or better!! 240gr at 1900fps or 400gr at 1400fps out of a 7.5" barrel. Which load of wholesome goodness would you choose?

 

[Cerberus Group]

I posted in this thread a few zillion pages back, and I've skimmed thru a few posts but not every one.

The title to thread is a bit misleading, as only one shot hit high on the chest, or in what I call "The high and tight area". Two others hit the torso, but even those would have been survivable, and even those along with the many others certainly did not even make it into the FBI/DEA very generous Q / Bottle scoring area. So asking the question about the 45 being enough...I guess if one is inclined to think the 45 is the death ray of calibers...then no.

In further researching this incident, it was found the Officer at some point said to himself, "I need to slow down and focus on the sights"...this is when the head shots happened which ended the fight.

At that point his shooting changed from subconscious to conscious decision making about his shooting, which leads me to my thoughts on shooting in general.

If the threat is close and easy to hit, this is no time for a bullseye type group, in fact, you need to be pounding shots into the threat as fast as possible and stop the threat NOW!...this is subconscious shooting.

If the threat is in anyway difficult to hit, you will need to slow down on the trigger and focus more on sight alignment...this is conscious shooting. This is where decisions can be made in the heat of things.

I find the distance for the change between the two occurs at around 10-12 yards...each person is different.

Your decision on how fast vs. how slow to press the trigger, how much front sight vs. combat look through and/or body index is based on two things, your perception of the threat situation AND your perception of your skill with your equipment.

There are quite a few very good drills to get one switching gears from one state of mind to the other...I'll post some in a different thread.

 

[The Heretic]

I did not watch the whole vid.

But every caliber is a compromise.

Given a reliable gun, with the same capacity (my 227 has 14 rd mags, my 226 Mk25 has the same capacity in 9mm) and the same features (the 227 and 226 are about the same), I would choose the 227 (it is .45 ACP) with self-defense ammo over the 226 with similar ammo. I have caliber x-change kits for the 226 in .22LR, .357 SIG and .40 S&W so I can choose any of those I wish too. The mags I have for .357/40 are 12 rd capacity, but you can get 15 rd. mags. I just ordered 20 rd. mags for 9mm.

IMO, capacity is more or less a wash. For many guns you can get high cap mags for 9mm, .40 and .45 ACP.

There are pluses and minuses for each cartridge. IMO, I prefer the more powerful cartridges. Now everybody defines power differently, but most people think the .45 ACP is one of the more powerful common semi-auto self-defense cartridges out there. I go by outcomes; there isn't a whole lot of difference in circumference of the projectile between .355, .40 and .45 when you get down to it, but there is in mass of the projectile, and mass does make a difference when encountering obstacles such as muscle, and especially bone. Human vital organs are at least partially protected by bone - so while gel tests are informative, they usually don't include actual bones in the tests as they are comparison tests only, not tests of what will happen when you shoot someone (or some animal) and hit a bone - such as the ribs protecting the human heart - or the bones in the arm when shooting someone from the side, or the skull.

In those scenarios, momentum (which is different from energy but related to it) is a factor. Go watch a pin shoot sometime; the more "powerful" guns such as 10mm, .45 ACP and .44 mag on up, are the ones that knock the pins off with more authority and speed (I used .45 and .44 mag when I would compete).

I don't feel undergunned with 9mm though and I have more 9mm handguns than I do .45 ACP for the simple fact that it is the more popular cartridge - so if SHTF I am more likely to encounter 9mm ammo than .45 ACP - certainly more so than .357 SIG or .40 S&W or 10mm.

Also, while I can shoot 9mm faster than .45 ACP, I am not bad with the latter either.

Then there is the weight and size; a my 227 will weigh more and is a bit larger than my Mk25 and the recoil is heavier.

So as I said, everything is a compromise. I don't get hung up on which is better - they are both effective so they will both do the job if I do mine.

 

[po18guy]

In 1986 I shot at a bad guy with the famous/infamous W-W .38 Special +P+. It had zero effect on him. Why?

I missed. 22 yards and I did not focus on the sights. Sarge put him down with a 5 yard face-to-face single 9 to the abdomen from a Beretta 92, instinctive. D/A first shot was naturally low. We learned much from that "drill."

Power = nothing without accuracy. Accuracy can mean very little without power. I recall here that President Reagan walked into the hospital with a potentially fatal .22 LR round in him.

 

[bbbass]

I posted in this thread a few zillion pages back, and I've skimmed thru a few posts but not every one.

The title to thread is a bit misleading, as only one shot hit high on the chest, or in what I call "The high and tight area". Two others hit the torso, but even those would have been survivable, and even those along with the many others certainly did not even make it into the FBI/DEA very generous Q / Bottle scoring area. So asking the question about the 45 being enough...I guess if one is inclined to think the 45 is the death ray of calibers...then no.

In further researching this incident, it was found the Officer at some point said to himself, "I need to slow down and focus on the sights"...this is when the head shots happened which ended the fight.

At that point his shooting changed from subconscious to conscious decision making about his shooting, which leads me to my thoughts on shooting in general.

If the threat is close and easy to hit, this is no time for a bullseye type group, in fact, you need to be pounding shots into the threat as fast as possible and stop the threat NOW!...this is subconscious shooting.

If the threat is in anyway difficult to hit, you will need to slow down on the trigger and focus more on sight alignment...this is conscious shooting. This is where decisions can be made in the heat of things.

I find the distance for the change between the two occurs at around 10-12 yards...each person is different.

Your decision on how fast vs. how slow to press the trigger, how much front sight vs. combat look through and/or body index is based on two things, your perception of the threat situation AND your perception of your skill with your equipment.

There are quite a few very good drills to get one switching gears from one state of mind to the other...I'll post some in a different thread.

I like the way you think!

Our local club IDPA scenarios typically feature a lot of varied distances, so I am used to changing rythm and sighting during a scene/drill. I would hope these learned skills would come naturally to me if ever needed. Personally, I have 3 changeover distances: Point blank shooting from hip/belly hold, Point blank shooting from fully extended arms (no sighting, distance of 0-5', unconscious shooting with "look-over" sighting (5'-3yds), conscious shooting with use of sights and varied pacing (3yds - 25yds)... further than 25yds is dependent on situation... then I'm either looking for better cover, tactical mag change under cover, exiting the area, or still shooting up to xxx yds. IDK... I can ring a gong with my .45ACP at 75yds but should I be engaging a combatant at that distance???