Using Magnum Powders in "Medium" cartridge reloading.

[arakboss]

I am thinking about buying some WC872 pulldown powder to use in 300 Win Mag and smaller cases, 30-06, 25-06, 308, 243 Win, 7.62x54r, 303 British etc. From what I have read online even a full case over heavier bullets will net me slower velocities and pressures compared to standard powders. Some reloaders use duplex loads to increase velocities but I would be OK with the reduced velocities. What dangers might exist with using a full case of slow powder like WC872 in a 30-06 cartridge for example?


Edit: One concern I have is ringing the bore. Supposedly this can happen with too slow of a powder for a cartridge/bullet combination.

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[RVTECH]

What dangers might exist with using a full case of slow powder like WC872 in a 30-06 cartridge for example?

For clarification are you asking if you can simply 'fill' an '06 case full of this powder and that is your 'measured' charge ?

If this is correct I would not recommend it as it is not a properly 'weighed' charge based on available data for that powder. Also case capacities vary and would result in inconsistent charges.

Bottom line stick to published data for the powder/bullet combination!

 

[arakboss]

For clarification are you asking if you can simply 'fill' an '06 case full of this powder and that is your 'measured' charge ?

If this is correct I would not recommend it as it is not a properly 'weighed' charge based on available data for that powder. Also case capacities can vary.

Bottom line stick to published data for the powder/bullet combination!

Yes that is what I am asking. Since this is a surplus powder you won't find published data for it.

From what I have read from other reloaders (not powder manufactures), you can't get enough of this powder in a 30-06 case to reach dangerous pressures with typical bullets available. Many reloaders have resorted to adding a kicker of faster powder because they couldn't get a clean burn with a full case of straight WC872. I have a bunch of heavy (240gr) cast and coated bullets that I think could provide enough resistance to get a reasonably clean burn with a full case of straight WC872.

I understand many reloaders will only work with canister grade powder and factory published data and I respect that. I am willing to take a little more risk and maybe make use of remote firing set up

 

[jordanka16]

So I've done almost exactly that.

I still have about 5 lbs of the powder out in my reloading room. I can't recall exactly what it was but it's a stick powder made for 20mm cannons. I would load a case full under a 150gr FMJ for a great fireworks show. Huge fireball and sparks out of the bore, pretty fun but yeah velocity is really low and it's not useful for much. But someone gave me 10lbs for free because it was basically useless in anything smaller than 20mm.

 

[MikeInOr]

I haven't done any reading or research on slow magnum powders in smaller cases but it is not something I would do. I know there is a powder shortage right now but if you consider the ramifications if something goes wrong it does not seem like it is worth the risk to "me".

 

[P7M13]

I can save you a bunch of money....
I have ~4lbs of H870 you're welcome to try. Wouldn't recommend doing so, as it also produced low velocities in 338 LM.
Also have some ancient Thunderbird MRP WMR that I bought from @Lilhigbee a coon's age ago for ~$10/lb that you're welcome to try. It's burn rate is between 4831 and RL22.

 

[arakboss]

So I've done almost exactly that.

I still have about 5 lbs of the powder out in my reloading room. I can't recall exactly what it was but it's a stick powder made for 20mm cannons. I would load a case full under a 150gr FMJ for a great fireworks show. Huge fireball and sparks out of the bore, pretty fun but yeah velocity is really low and it's not useful for much. But someone gave me 10lbs for free because it was basically useless in anything smaller than 20mm.

I think it needs a heavy bullet to burn more completely. Do you recall having kernels of unburned powder falling out of chamber or lingering in barrel? What primers did you use?

 

[arakboss]

I can save you a bunch of money....
I have ~4lbs of H870 you're welcome to try. Wouldn't recommend doing so, as it also produced low velocities in 338 LM.
Also have some ancient Thunderbird MRP that I bought from @Lilhigbee for ~$10/lb you're welcome to try.

On the burn rate chart H870 is a touch slower than the WC872 but the seller of the powder suggest using H870 or AA8700 load data for starting loads. Many of the reloaders using this powder in the smaller cases have been using cast bullets, I am guessing that the lower velocities don't bother them too much.

 

[jordanka16]

I think it needs a heavy bullet to burn more completely. Do you recall having kernels of unburned powder falling out of chamber or lingering in barrel? What primers did you use?

I don't know how fast WC872 burns, but like P7M13 said those powders intended for .50s and 20mms and larger pretty much only work in those huge cases, normal rifles just don't work, no matter what you do.

I only use magnum primers in rifles so it was either a CCI LRM or #34, probably a 34. For sure it didn't burn completely, but I didn't notice any large unburned kernels, just debris all in the barrel. Cleaned up fine though.

 

[P7M13]

One added thing about many of the surplus powders, for proper burn and consistent performance, they need to burn at a specific pressure. Like you probably read about 7383, until you reach that good pressure, it will burn like crap and be dirty.
That powder I mentioned isn't Thunderbird, it's Winchester Magnum Rifle in the old steel cone tops. I have digitized loading manuals from the 80's (I think) that have loads for it.

 

[jordanka16]

I went and checked what powder it was, it's H570.

Like you can see in the photo, huge sticks of powder that are a pain to deal with. Burns way too slow to be of any use in most cartridges, probably too slow even for 50 bmg.

 

[arakboss]

One added thing about many of the surplus powders, for proper burn and consistent performance, they need to burn at a specific pressure. Like you probably read about 7383, until you reach that good pressure, it will burn like crap and be dirty.
That powder I mentioned isn't Thunderbird, it's Winchester Magnum Rifle in the old steel cone tops. I have digitized loading manuals from the 80's (I think) that have loads for it.

Thanks I picked up about 7 or 8 cans of that WMR powder for cheap from another member. Haven't tried any yet but I cracked one open before buying it and it smelled and looked fine. I have found some limited load data for it including 30-06 with 200 and 220gr bullets. Also data for 25-06 and 300 Win Mag. I might pick up a 270 one of these days and the magnum powders should work in that too.

 

[P7M13]

Thanks I picked up about 7 or 8 cans of that WMR powder for cheap from another member. Haven't tried any yet but I cracked one open before buying it and it smelled and looked fine. I have found some limited load data for it including 30-06 with 200 and 220gr bullets. Also data for 25-06 and 300 Win Mag. I might pick up a 270 one of these days and the magnum powders should work in that too.

I used one can of it for fire forming a bunch of 6.5 Swede Ackley and some 338 WM plinkers.
If you have that much, why would you ever consider using W872 ? LOL

 

[arakboss]

I used one can of it for fire forming a bunch of 6.5 Swede Ackley and some 338 WM plinkers.
If you have that much, why would you ever consider using W872 ? LOL

Variety is the spice of life

 

[arakboss]

I am finally getting around to ordering some surplus powder from GI Brass. They said AA8700 data can be used for the WC872. I found a number of aa8700 loads in the 2003 Accurate manual that I can use for cartridges I shoot.

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/2003guide.pdf

Note: link may not work in chrome mobile browser.

 

[arakboss]

Pat's Reloading has some WC860 that they claim is a little faster than the WC872. It's about $15 more per jug than the WC872 at GI Brass and I don't think it would make much difference with the load results. Am I wrong?

 

[Provincial]

Not that it applies to the powders under discussion, but my father used a slower powder in a medium case. He had a large quantity of Hodgdon 4831 surplus from WWII that he bought for reloading 300 H&H Magnum. He also used this for 30-06 and 150 grain bullets using Lyman data and that worked very well. As I recall, these loads were a little slower than factory loads, but not much. These were shot in an 03 Springfield with a 24" barrel, and seemed to get complete burning. Accuracy was quite good.

 

[P7M13]

Pat's Reloading has some WC860 that they claim is a little faster than the WC872. It's about $15 more per jug than the WC872 at GI Brass and I don't think it would make much difference with the load results. Am I wrong?

860 vs 872 I think would be very different. Call them and ask.

Variety is the spice of life

A favorite saying of a childhood friend who behaved like a roving dog until Magic contracted AIDS. Then he stopped cold turkey.
On the flip side, that saying is why I have so many calibers and guns....

 

[arakboss]

Not that it applies to the powders under discussion, but my father used a slower powder in a medium case. He had a large quantity of Hodgdon 4831 surplus from WWII that he bought for reloading 300 H&H Magnum. He also used this for 30-06 and 150 grain bullets using Lyman data and that worked very well. As I recall, these loads were a little slower than factory loads, but not much. These were shot in an 03 Springfield with a 24" barrel, and seemed to get complete burning. Accuracy was quite good.

Slower is fine with me, it might make the barrels last a little longer. Economy is my main reason for pursuing the slower surplus powders. I haven't seen a lot of new surplus powder coming to market so I am thinking it will be harder to come by in the future. Current prices of $8 to $10 a pound is very attractive to me. I know lot's of shooters are chasing max velocities but that isn't a priority for me.

 

[arakboss]

860 vs 872 I think would be very different. Call them and ask.


A favorite saying of a childhood friend who behaved like a roving dog until Magic contracted AIDS. Then he stopped cold turkey.
On the flip side, that saying is why I have so many calibers and guns....

I talked to somebody at Pat's today and he said the WC860 is a "little" faster but not by much.