This just in - military P320 shooting

[1775usmc]

Shame on those Youtubers that used the airman's death to forward their agendas.
I don't see very many apologies coming forward.
Maybe apology videos don't garner clicks ?

They aren't required to apologize. The worst thing about it is SIGs reputation is so bad that everyone actually thought it was a possibility. Myself included.

That's on SIG.

 

[lucusloc]

They aren't required to apologize. The worst thing about it is SIGs reputation is so bad that everyone actually thought it was a possibility. Myself included.

That's on SIG.

Accepting claims without evidence is on you. Accepting claims when everyone is looking for evidence and cannot find any, while finding tons of problems with the claims as put forwards is also on you. Sig has a lot of problems, but acceptance of the prevailing narrative by the gun community at large is not one of them. Taking those claims non-critically just because Sig bashing was in vogue is on the gun community at large, especially including the people who rejected the evidence of Sig's innocence in these incidents in favor of pushing a narrative.

 

[1775usmc]

Accepting claims without evidence is on you. Accepting claims when everyone is looking for evidence and cannot find any, while finding tons of problems with the claims as put forwards is also on you. Sig has a lot of problems, but acceptance of the prevailing narrative by the gun community at large is not one of them. Taking those claims non-critically just because Sig bashing was in vogue is on the gun community at large, especially including the people who rejected the evidence of Sig's innocence in these incidents in favor of pushing a narrative.

I don't care. SIG could have fixed all this but they just dug their heels in. They get to shoulder some of the blame.

F em.

 

[lucusloc]

I don't care. SIG could have fixed all this but they just dug their heels in. They get to shoulder some of the blame.

F em.

Fixed what exactly? All Sig is guilty of is abysmal PR, but the main points of their PR were correct. The gun is functioning as designed, which is exactly what their PR department said. Yes they said it in antagonistic ways that effectively blamed the firearms community as a whole for the issue, but that was not entirely incorrect either. So basically Sig said everything correctly, just in a really horrible way that cause people who were already wrong to dig in their heals and blast their wrongness all over social media.

I have said it before, but I totally understand why Sig's PR department said what they said. It sucks to be right when everyone else is saying you are wrong. But I also understand that the job of a PR department is not to be right, it is to manage customer expectations and get the community on board with any solutions being offered. If that solution is demonstrating safety, they should have focused on that, not on how everyone else was wrong. They failed miserably at that, and that was largely because they kept on harping (even if correctly) that everyone else was wrong.

 

[Kruel J]

The P320 doesn't just go off. And SIG still sucks.

For the longest time I thought there was something legitimately wrong with the gun itself. Now I realize that it's simply the wrong tool for the job.

I always assumed it was the lack of a trigger blade safety.

 

[Kruel J]

Fixed what exactly? All Sig is guilty of is abysmal PR, but the main points of their PR were correct. The gun is functioning as designed, which is exactly what their PR department said. Yes they said it in antagonistic ways that effectively blamed the firearms community as a whole for the issue, but that was not entirely incorrect either. So basically Sig said everything correctly, just in a really horrible way that cause people who were already wrong to dig in their heals and blast their wrongness all over social media.

I have said it before, but I totally understand why Sig's PR department said what they said. It sucks to be right when everyone else is saying you are wrong. But I also understand that the job of a PR department is not to be right, it is to manage customer expectations and get the community on board with any solutions being offered. If that solution is demonstrating safety, they should have focused on that, not on how everyone else was wrong. They failed miserably at that, and that was largely because they kept on harping (even if correctly) that everyone else was wrong.

A little empathy goes a long way.

 

[1775usmc]

Fixed what exactly? All Sig is guilty of is abysmal PR, but the main points of their PR were correct. The gun is functioning as designed, which is exactly what their PR department said. Yes they said it in antagonistic ways that effectively blamed the firearms community as a whole for the issue, but that was not entirely incorrect either. So basically Sig said everything correctly, just in a really horrible way that cause people who were already wrong to dig in their heals and blast their wrongness all over social media.

I have said it before, but I totally understand why Sig's PR department said what they said. It sucks to be right when everyone else is saying you are wrong. But I also understand that the job of a PR department is not to be right, it is to manage customer expectations and get the community on board with any solutions being offered. If that solution is demonstrating safety, they should have focused on that, not on how everyone else was wrong. They failed miserably at that, and that was largely because they kept on harping (even if correctly) that everyone else was wrong.

Still don't care. Still hate SIG.

I said I was wrong. Made a whole post about. Others are free to do as they wish.

 

[MTpockets]

@1775usmc Tubbs, your thread was decent…but I really enjoyed the song that you wrote about it…



"The 320 is shhhazzle, but I ooooh I was wrong (but not about SIG). Ayye-hiigh-yaaah.
Thank ya very much!"




Edited for clarity and connection

View: https://youtu.be/QfzDUpB88x4

 

[1775usmc]

@1775usmc Tubbs, I really enjoyed the song that you wrote about it…

View attachment 2189350

"The 320 is shhhazzle, but I ooooh I was wrong. Ayye-hiigh-yaaah.
Thank ya very much!"

View: https://youtu.be/QfzDUpB88x4

I was wrong. No issue admitting that. I still think the platform along with the company is hot garbage. Haha.

 

[lucusloc]

I always assumed it was the lack of a trigger blade safety.

Inertial Drop Safeties (aka "trigger blade safeties") will not prevent all FOD trigger engagements. Yes, they will prevent some of them, but any FOD that engages with the face of the trigger will entirely bypass that "safety feature" of a IDS. Glock is famous for mainstreaming such safties, and they still have holster oopsies on a regular basis, when people get careless and allow junk into their holsters.

How many of the Sig discharges would have been prevented by an IDS? Hard to say, but it is certain that it would not have been all of them. A good many of them clearly had a good FOD/trigger interface, which means the trigger would still function as intended.

This is a big misstep by many firearms manufacturers now. For example, Glock did not used to advertise their trigger dongles as a trigger safety. In years past it was clearly marketed as a drop safety only. But now they do lean on the perceptions of the dongle as a trigger safety, and advertise it as such in their marketing materials. I see this as a huge liability issue in addition to it being blatant and dangerous misinformation. Yes, I get wanting to capitalize on mistakes being made by competitors, but doing so by misrepresenting their own product is going to come back to bite them, especially if someone sues them for a failure of the "trigger safety" to prevent a trigger pull and discharge.

And fighting this misinformation is an uphill battle, because people can point to instances where the IDS did actually prevented an accidental trigger actuation. But those saves were accidental to the design, not an integral and intentional feature, and there are tons of ways for the trigger to have been accidentally pulled in that situation (e.g. the FOD had just a little more engagement on the trigger face). Too many people think they can be relied on for that kind of protection.

 

[DirectDrive]

They aren't required to apologize. The worst thing about it is SIGs reputation is so bad that everyone actually thought it was a possibility. Myself included.

That's on SIG.

Some things in life are not required but are appreciated.

 

[lucusloc]

Some things in life are not required but are appreciated.

Indeed. It is what we do that is above and beyond what is "required" that often defines our integrity in the perception of others.

 

[po18guy]

Since the suspect's death is under investigation, I'm sure the question on everyone's mind is: was suspect Marcus White-Allen "Epsteined"?

 

[1775usmc]

Some things in life are not required but are appreciated.

Well not everyone comes to the same conclusions. Should they come out and apologize for the Airforce incident…. Sure. But there are plenty of people out there who still think the gun is defective and unsafe. Whether it is or not. The Airforce incident isn't going to change their mind.

We live in a world where men struggle to own their mistakes and take accountability. I wouldn't hold your breath.

 

[Kruel J]

Inertial Drop Safeties (aka "trigger blade safeties") will not prevent all FOD trigger engagements. Yes, they will prevent some of them, but any FOD that engages with the face of the trigger will entirely bypass that "safety feature" of a IDS. Glock is famous for mainstreaming such safties, and they still have holster oopsies on a regular basis, when people get careless and allow junk into their holsters.

How many of the Sig discharges would have been prevented by an IDS? Hard to say, but it is certain that it would not have been all of them. A good many of them clearly had a good FOD/trigger interface, which means the trigger would still function as intended.

This is a big misstep by many firearms manufacturers now. For example, Glock did not used to advertise their trigger dongles as a trigger safety. In years past it was clearly marketed as a drop safety only. But now they do lean on the perceptions of the dongle as a trigger safety, and advertise it as such in their marketing materials. I see this as a huge liability issue in addition to it being blatant and dangerous misinformation. Yes, I get wanting to capitalize on mistakes being made by competitors, but doing so by misrepresenting their own product is going to come back to bite them, especially if someone sues them for a failure of the "trigger safety" to prevent a trigger pull and discharge.

And fighting this misinformation is an uphill battle, because people can point to instances where the IDS did actually prevented an accidental trigger actuation. But those saves were accidental to the design, not an integral and intentional feature, and there are tons of ways for the trigger to have been accidentally pulled in that situation (e.g. the FOD had just a little more engagement on the trigger face). Too many people think they can be relied on for that kind of protection.

Nothing is guaranteed.

 

[1775usmc]

Since the suspect's death is under investigation, I'm sure the question on everyone's mind is: was suspect Marcus White-Allen "Epsteined"?

I wanna know how he was just doing whatever he wanted without any supervision. When I was in that's not how things worked. Especially if you were being charged with manslaughter. You didn't get free time and were watched like a hawk. Maybe the Airforce is different than the Marines when it comes to punishment. Not sure how he committed suicide but for those who want to go down the path of conspiracy it doesn't look good.

I bet he was filled with grief/shame and possibly encouraged by his superiors to pull the plug. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[1775usmc]

Nothing is guaranteed.

Always point back to Glock….. sigh.

Yet only one manufacturer is in the spot light. It's not a good gun for any kind of duty use. Period.

 

[Kruel J]

Always point back to Glock….. sigh.

Yet only one manufacturer is in the spot light. It's not a good gun for any kind of duty use. Period.

And assume disliking Sig means automatic Glock loyalist. It's just a defense mechanism.

 

[lucusloc]

Always point back to Glock….. sigh.

Yet only one manufacturer is in the spot light. It's not a good gun for any kind of duty use. Period.

What is good for the goose and all that. If we are using "pulled their product from production" as an admission of guilt then Glock has a lot of explaining to do.

 

[Kruel J]

What is good for the goose and all that. If we are using "pulled their product from production" as an admission of guilt then Glock has a lot of explaining to do.

That was pretty good.