The forgotten ones

[P7M13]

You know..I'm not a young pup..been around a while. So I've seen, witnessed the type of of panhandler/scammers you're talking about..and been burnt. This was years ago.

But I've really thought about this.

I can sit at a desk at an office and earn $120K+ a year. I won't get into the stress and BS that I would have to deal with for that, but the fact is I can.

Then I think, would I stand on the corner someplace, either in freezing rain or scorching sun, with my dog and beg for people's charity? And if so..what would that cost be? What is that value?

I wouldn't. So even if that person is running a scam, or if their story doesn't gell...they're still..standing on some corner with a sign. That's more than I would do. And it's harder work.

That in itself has value.

I don't see value when the message it sends is that it's better to beg than pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

 

[Indy62]

I don't see value when the message it sends is that it's better to beg than pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

Not everyone has boots P7M

 

[CLT65]

It's so hard to truly help people in this day, in our society. There are so many resources in place to help needy people. Most of those on the streets are unemployable, due to various mental health and substance abuse issues. I had a friend who was involved with a ministry seriously trying to help, and he said it was incredibly frustrating because so many people out there don't really want help to improve their lives. They're comfortable with their lifestyle; they just want money to continue living the way they do.

The guy in your story was standing on the corner begging in the hot sun. Would you do that? That takes some moxi.

From your perspective (and mine) it would really take something to stand on a street corner asking strangers for help, because we have some pride and something like that would be one helluva humbling thing to do. I wouldn't be able to do that unless my family was literally starving to death.

For people living in that world though, most of them just don't see it that way. I don't know that it takes moxi for them, so much as it's just what you do in their world; there's really no pride or shame involved.

Realistically I do think that for most of them, the money you hand them will go to food, alcohol, drugs, and who knows what else. You might be helping keep someone fed, but you're also perpetuating their lifestyle. You are helping them with their immediate needs though, so there is that. Giving money to panhandlers really is mostly about you, and how it makes you feel. You just have to hope that you actually helped someone, rather than just bought them some booze or weed.

I once saw an older guy walking his bike along a county road, stopped and gave him a ride to the next town over, quite a ways out of my way. The whole way he talked, telling obvious tall tales, fishing for a handout. Despite his dishonesty I still felt sorry for him, so as he got out I gave him five bucks, all I had on me. I still remember the irritated look on his face when he said "Is that all you have?"

Most of the people that you could truly help, that really need the help, are too proud to ask for help.

Not everyone has boots P7M

And that's just it. There are millions of people out there that just don't know how to help themselves. Maybe they never learned how to function productively in society, how to be a responsible adult and take care of themselves. It's just not that easy to go from one lifestyle to another, especially when handouts will keep you going. I think most of us would gladly pull out our wallets and give more than just a couple bucks to someone if we knew they really needed help or were honestly trying to improve their life, but once you have a little insight into how their world works, it's hard to believe that you're doing anything more than assuaging your own conscience a little. It's really hard to actually help people, and there are no easy answers.

No disrespect intended, by the way; I don't mean to knock what you're saying, or giving money to panhandlers if that's what you feel is right.

 

[Joe13]

When I was younger there was a busy corner within seeing distance from the business windows for the company I worked at.

The same guy would be on that corner every day M-F for the 9-10 hours we were open.

One day 2 of my coworkers decided to follow him as he packed up and headed into a residential area.

Went 3-4 blocks and got into a brand new Dodge Ram.

Next day they went out and struck up a conversation with him and asked about the new pickup. He said he quit his job after he realized he could make over $60k in a year sitting on his butt on a street corner and not having to pay for any of the taxes on it.

I haven't given money to anyone since then with the exception of a young guy with a sign that read "I bet you can't hit me with a quarter".

I gave him a few bucks for originality.


I give hats and socks or bottles of water when I'm in a work vehicle and buy the beanies and socks on sale when they are on sale so I have stuff in the vehicle.


Having said that, even when I am employed and doing well, I would go bankrupt just giving a dollar to every homeless person in the Gresham area alone.

There are more homeless people on street corners and medians then there are McDonalds and weed stores combined, and that's saying something.

 

[Indy62]

I had a friend who was involved with a ministry seriously trying to help, and he said it was incredibly frustrating because so many people out there don't really want help to improve their lives. They're comfortable with their lifestyle; they just want money to continue living the way they do.

Unfortunately I agree. But I think what's happening is they're comfortable with their lifestyle because they don't know there are any other options..be it drugs or mental issues.

For people living in that world though, most of them just don't see it that way. I don't know that it takes moxi for them, so much as it's just what you do in their world; there's really no pride or shame involved.

I think the people on the streets still have a sense of pride and shame. It's just that the will to eat (or satisfy their drug needs)..superseded those two. That's the crux of the problem. How do you help someone who doesn't know there's a different way and can have a different outcome? I don't know. I know a lot about a lot of things, and I think I know a lot about human nature. But when it comes to this issue..I fail in all regards.

You might be helping keep someone fed, but you're also perpetuating their lifestyle

I agree. I probably am. But at least they can eat for a day. I know...big deal...but I've gone four or five days without food in my past. I understand that need..that hunger. I've also been without money and really wanted to get drunk so I can stop thinking about reality and the world..and existence.. for a few hours. Years ago..but still..it's in my memory.

Giving money to panhandlers really is mostly about you, and how it makes you feel.

I agree. Shamefully..but yes I agree.

Most of the people that you could truly help, that really need the help, are too proud to ask for help.

True..I would never know. They aren't advertising their situation on a street corner with a dog.

but once you have a little insight into how their world works, it's hard to believe that you're doing anything more than assuaging your own conscience a little

That I disagree with. I would say it's both.

 

[Indy62]

Having said that, even when I am employed and doing well, I would go bankrupt just giving a dollar to every homeless person in the Gresham area alone.

There are more homeless people on street corners and medians then there are McDonalds and weed stores combined, and that's saying something.

I know. I know..maybe I've just noticed it more because I live in a somewhat middle class area of Salem.

 

[hongkong2]

If they say they're a vet I ask them for their serial number...

 

[Indy62]

If they say they're a vet I ask them for their serial number...

Well..I don't know what year it ended...but serial numbers were replaced with SSN's...decades ago. And why would it matter? I guess I could ask for his reserve ID..which you get after your active duty tour ends (I carry mine)..but that wouldn't matter to me either. I can, for the most part, pick out a vet.

 

[hongkong2]

Well..I don't know what year it ended...but serial numbers were replace with SSN's.

Now you know how old I am!

edited to add:

Branch of Service	Date of Changeover
Army and Air Force	July 1, 1969
Navy and Marine Corps	January 1, 1972
Coast Guard	October 1, 1974

 

[Ben B.]

An "enabler" is someone who supports another to continue in self-destructive behavior (like substance abuse) by providing excuses or cash or by making it possible to avoid the consequences of such behavior.

My opinion is that repeated cash handouts always become a problem. And consequence free misbehavior generally leads to more such behaviors.

Some people don't care if they are enabling negative behaviors, because giving money makes them feel good.

Which is an interesting position to take, when you think about it.

 

[Indy62]

Well Ben..I can't disagree with your stance. Because I've lived that stance for years. Maybe someday you'll see it differently.

 

[oremike]

I'm a hand up not a hand out kind of a guy. I believe that everyone can do some good to the betterment of the world we live in. If I see effort I'm willing to help. It doesn't take much, playing music, picking up trash or cigarette butts. Anything. Something. But just a hand out nope I see way too much of that to include tipping at the drive thru. The more hands in general I see out, the less likely I'm am to help. And that's too bad because the truly needy get lost in the crowd of opportunists.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

My opinion is that repeated cash handouts always become a problem. And consequence free misbehavior generally leads to more such behaviors.

I'm in 110% agreement that that is true when you are talking about banks or other financial institutions, but as it turns out when you are talking about regular people, cash (even no strings attached cash) improves more lives than it makes worse.

A California city gave some residents $500 a month, no strings attached. Here’s how they spent it.

Stockton is conducting a basic income experiment — and the early results are in.

www.vox.com

 

[bionic knees]

Leaving the grocery store one day last week, (one of the hotter days) there was an attractive 30 ish year old woman holding a sign that read " abandoned and stranded" she looked the part. I waved her over and gave her $10, she thanked me with tears in her eyes and I headed for home. I thought about seeing if she wanted to go with me to get a meal, a shower and her clothes washed but figured it might not be a good idea, being married to a jealous type and all.

 

[WillametteWill]

Good thread to start @Indy62 . As a suggestion for anyone reluctant to give someone money on a street corner, there are plenty of organizations in the community that are doing good work with the homeless. (And sadly, there are some which much of the money goes to admin and a perpetual scheme to keep people rich, IIRC Colion Noir did a documentary on this.) I have a close family member who works with (the good ones) on a regular basis and money to these groups help those in need. They are using funds to actually feed, house and clothe people in need. Your post is a reminder for me to send some money their way. I appreciate your post.

To say this is a complex issue would be the understatement of our time.

 

[TTSX]

When the grocery store asks if I want to donate to the hungry, I think to myself while looking at my paltry cart inside a castle sized building full of food... No. No I do not.

 

[Ben B.]

I'm in 110% agreement that that is true when you are talking about banks or other financial institutions, but as it turns out when you are talking about regular people, cash (even no strings attached cash) improves more lives than it makes worse.

A California city gave some residents $500 a month, no strings attached. Here’s how they spent it.

Stockton is conducting a basic income experiment — and the early results are in.

www.vox.com

Yes, I'll be interested in longer term outcomes after it becomes routine, and not pilot studies. If I got $500 free per month along with everyone else, I'd probably plug it into retirement funds. I doubt I'd decide to quit my job and acquire a drug addiction. And if I had a sudden car repair or medical bill, that would be fine. Might even buy a gun I don't need, because…free money! Eventually, I'd probably count on that money as part of my routine income. And if it went away, I probably wouldn't be pissed because I don't NEED the extra $500…but I bet a bunch of people would be. It would seem like it was Their Right to that money. They are entitled to it, by gar!!

Try winning in Iowa running on a platform that includes ending corn-ethanol subsidies.

We know from animal studies the effects of free food on wild animal behaviors can be negative. Feeding the birds is not but even with the touching story pictures of Russian troops feeding starving polar bears, feeding bears is considered poor thinking. Even if it makes you feel benevolent and warm towards others.

I await the study of giving $500 per month of strings free money to street addicts. I'm sure there will be some positives, and expect overall it will be a failure.

 

[CLT65]

they don't know there are any other options..be it drugs or mental issues.

This is an interesting topic, and relevant. I think that you're correct; many of them don't believe there are any better options for them. Other people can get ahead in life, but for whatever reason, whatever circumstances, they are held back and can't. I know that's painting with a broad brush and that there are all kinds of people on the streets, with all kinds of perspectives and pasts, but people typically live how they live because:
1) They have no options (there are all kinds of organizations and resources out there to help those who truly want out).
2) They like the way they're living, and the perceived freedom it gives them.
3) They think they have no options- their view of themselves is so limited and poor that their lot in life is mere subsistence.

I can relate to that last one in a small way. When I was a young man, my dad's only plan for me was to farm with him, and no adult human male could work with him for very long and retain their sanity, so that was out. The years after high school were spent trying to work with him, and working low pay part-time dead-end jobs.

My grandfather kept telling me to go get a job at the lumber mill where he had worked, but I'd heard all my life that working a job in the mill was for losers; a real man works for himself and farms, so that was out. I wandered through life subsisting (without help though, I worked and paid my own way) for nearly a decade out of high school. In addition to my grandfather, I had several other older friends who tried to tell me to get a job in industry and work my way up into a good career.

I eventually got smart and did just that in the semiconductor industry. We still pinch pennies due to my wife's issues, but I've done well enough to raise a family and stay out of debt. I'd probably be able to retire by now if I'd have started sooner, but at least I started. My point is that there were plenty of good opportunities for me when I was young, but I was blind to them due to a deeply held misconception about life and what I was capable of. Many people tried telling me the way to improve myself, but I wasn't able to make that step and do it until the stars lined up, the clouds opened, and I was practically forced to see the light.

I could have gone down to that lumber mill right out of high school, worked my way into an apprenticeship to be a millwright or electrician or some such, started a decent career and gone anywhere I wanted. I've known a lot of good guys that have.There are all kinds of thing that I could have done, but I was blind to them even as people around me were frustrated at my refusal to listen. It took a long time for me to see the light. I never was destitute or homeless, but in a small way I can start to understand the hopelessness that some people living on the fringes feel. Good things are for other people, never for them; they have to settle for the crumbs and leftovers.

 

[Koda]

I'm in 110% agreement that that is true when you are talking about banks or other financial institutions, but as it turns out when you are talking about regular people, cash (even no strings attached cash) improves more lives than it makes worse.

A California city gave some residents $500 a month, no strings attached. Here’s how they spent it.

Stockton is conducting a basic income experiment — and the early results are in.

www.vox.com

vox is a far left leaning media source, its not likely at all you will read a counter perspective to the UBI subject. A controlled experiment improved the life of those in it that were willing to work anyways to get ahead in life is not surprising at all.

The experiment is entirely to support the concept of promoting a government funded UBI, where will those funds come from?

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

vox is a far left leaning media source,

It was the first one I found not behind paywall, how many different sources would you like and is there a particular source you are more inclined to trust?

where will those funds come from

Instead of asking me maybe you should ask MIlton Freedman. he thought UBI was a great idea