Smith & Wesson .357 magnum revolver

[unklekippy]

I would take a 9 over a 44 mag any day if I were to get into a "gunfight"(thank The Lord those are never situational). Not over a 357, though. Again, apples & oranges. I would also rather have a .45 or .40 than a 9 in a "gunfight". Of course, if I were attending a scheduled "gunfight", I'd probably just bring an AK or settle the matter with a .308.

Telling me that a 9 is better than a 357 because you'd rather have it in a fight over a 44 skews things a bit, doesn't it?

What was this thread about again? I am truly sorry for my involvement in the hijacking of this thread.

 

[unklekippy]

Well then you'd be hamstrung.

Completely false and proof of a lack of understanding of things that go boom. A 158 is a much more powerful projectile. Still, either are far more powerful than the 9mm and both should successfully stop a fight if placed properly. Of course, a .25ACP is capable of that but I'd still want something a little more powerful.

Arguing a semi-auto vs. revolver is about as absurd as arguing your AR compared to your Remington 700.

Now, I will agree with titsonritz that a snubbie .357 is just about worthless, but I pointed that out on the first page. On that, I am done. I hope you all are properly equipped with what suits you should the time come. For me, that will probably be a 1911 and Ruger LCP if I am out. At home, it would be a 12 gauge, 1911, .357 or .44. Never a 9mm. Like I said before, to each his/her own.

 

[unklekippy]

I thought you had "a keen understanding of ballistics", 125 grain are far superior on human targets than 158s. Now if bear is on the menu then go with the 158 heavies.

False. But I said I was done, didn't I?

 

[oknow]

I would take a 9 over a 44 mag any day if I were to get into a "gunfight"(thank The Lord those are never situational). Not over a 357, though. Again, apples & oranges. I would also rather have a .45 or .40 than a 9 in a "gunfight". Of course, if I were attending a scheduled "gunfight", I'd probably just bring an AK or settle the matter with a .308.

Telling me that a 9 is better than a 357 because you'd rather have it in a fight over a 44 skews things a bit, doesn't it?

What was this thread about again? I am truly sorry for my involvement in the hijacking of this thread.

why attend at all? your outcome would be better if you didn't show up at the scheduled gunfight.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.proof of a lack of understanding of things that go boom..

I've probably been shooting high performance 9mm longer than you've been alive.. around thirty five years, O understanderer.

 

[duane black]

I've probably been shooting high performance 9mm longer than you've been alive.. around thirty five years, O understanderer.

View attachment 137994

 

[Certaindeaf]

You obviously lack an understanding of things that go shazayam! lolz

 

[duane black]

Seriously though...

I have no issues with either the 9mm or the 357. I would not want to be shot with either. I do personally believe after hand loading thousands of rounds for 357, it is a very versatile caliber that can fill more roles than the 9mm. The new 9mm HP ammo on the market is nothing to sneeze at for self defense and if I were required to carry one for duty , I would not feel at all under armed.

I feel the 357 loaded with hot hard cast projectiles is a much better trail gun. I used to load 357 in my 686 at 38 special velocity behind a bit of unique, this was a fantastically fun and accurate load. I also worked up some heavy hard cast loads for wilderness carry. I personally would prefer this to a 9mm +p in the sticks.

I had the 686+ , 7 rounds of 357 never concerned me as far as capacity went. I felt very well armed. I guess it helped that I shot it very well due to being able to hand load for it and getting a ton of trigger time behind it.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Seriously though...

I have no issues with either the 9mm or the 357. I would not want to be shot with either. I do personally believe after hand loading thousands of rounds for 357, it is a very versatile caliber that can fill more roles than the 9mm. The new 9mm HP ammo on the market is nothing to sneeze at for self defense and if I were required to carry one for duty , I would not feel at all under armed.

I feel the 357 loaded with hot hard cast projectiles is a much better trail gun. I used to load 357 in my 686 at 38 special velocity behind a bit of unique, this was a fantastically fun and accurate load. I also worked up some heavy hard cast loads for wilderness carry. I personally would prefer this to a 9mm +p in the sticks.

I had the 686+ , 7 rounds of 357 never concerned me as far as capacity went. I felt very well armed. I guess it helped that I shot it very well due to being able to hand load for it and getting a ton of trigger time behind it.

I hear you about the .357. I love me my .357 bore revolvers.. 2, 3 and 4er's" for me.
I've handloaded and cast for a long time and if I want a penetrator with destruction in the 9, I also use the 158 grain SWC, among many other weight SWC's.

 

[soberups]

The original post was about small-frame airweight 2" snubbies chambered in .357.

The .357 magnum was originally designed to be fired from a large, steel-framed revolver with a 4" or greater barrel and when loaded in such a weapon it is a great all-around cartridge and an excellent choice for self defense.

If what you need is a lightweight weapon that is easy to conceal then a compact 9MM with +P JHP's or an airweight snubbie in .38+P JHP is a better choice. Both of these cartridges have proven track records for self defense and are far more suitable for concealed carry weapons.

Trying to get full Magnum ballistics out of an alloy-framed airweight with a 2" barrel is downright stupid. Its hard on the gun, its hard on the shooter, it makes rapid and accurate followup shots impossible and it leaves the shooter blind and deaf from muzzle flash/blast. Its one of those bad ideas of the shooting world that never seems to go away, like pistol grips on shotguns or Taurus Judge revolvers chambered in .410.

 

[unklekippy]

I've probably been shooting high performance 9mm longer than you've been alive.. around thirty five years, O understanderer.

People have voted Democrat for 75 years. You want to brag about that? I've only got 30 years of constant shooting in me. 4,000+ rounds a year in just .38/.357, since it is apparently a contest.

 

[unklekippy]

And two-thirds of the power is spent on the other side of the target. It is a historical fact the 125s are superior on human targets - pretty much optimal, in fact, but the size, weight and limited capacity of the launching pad is less so.

I must conclude that, while you may have a keen understanding of ballistics, you have a lack of understanding how it applies to human adversaries and the dynamic of a gunfight.

You are again wrong. I do understand. "The dynamic of a gunfight"? The real problem is those that believe they understand the dynamics of a gunfight because they read a book by someone that has never been in one, like Maasad Ayoob(I'm a fan, but he talks like he has been there and has not.). I personally have put large bullets into flesh, and my reading is from the likes of Charley Askins, who was there many times. But enough of that. I believe you and I see eye to eye on a lot of things and arguing this is silly.

The fact is that I will concede the 9mm to be a fine defensive gun. However, the only reason it is our military sidearm is because the higher-ups were too afraid of recoil. The same reason the FBI decided they couldn't handle the 10mm and that many PD's dropped the .41mag(or never gave it a chance at all).

In the history of firearms there are folks that argue big vs. little(Keith vs. O'Connor) or fast vs. slow(USA vs. Britain). My experiences(real experiences, not what I read and want to believe) tell me that a heavy bullet is where it's at. In this argument, the example would be a 125 being severely hampered by a denim jacket or completely stopped by a button on that jacket. Never in a million years would I stand in front of a 9mm because it is "underpowered". Bullet construction is so amazing these days that a .380 is a violently expanding death pill. As I said many times before, a 9mm does NOTHING for me, to each his own.

 

[unklekippy]

why attend at all? your outcome would be better if you didn't show up at the scheduled gunfight.

That's a joke, right? You could tell that I was being sarcastic, yes?

 

[unklekippy]

BTW, we civilians have it good. Expanding ammo makes the .223 and 9mm quite effective rounds. In a military capacity, where only FMJ projectiles are allowed, how would you feel about it then? How many Americans died because there lethal hits on an enemy target zipped through, rather than tore a nasty channel? Why have so many soldiers dug up, bought, traded for, had Ma & Pa send them or just wrote to .45 and .308 manufacturers to get a real gun? No matter what you say THESE THINGS HAVE AND WILL HAPEN.

Bottom line, the 9 will work, but there are much better things out there, even in semi-auto's. Forget the apples & oranges comparison to revolver rounds.

 

[redbos99]

I dont understand much, but arguing is just plain stupid! I am not a police officer, never served in the Military, just a dumb Iron Worker. What I do understand is this, 9MM with JHP's, 38+P or 357 Mag are all going to hurt someone really bad, hopefully they just go away, or maybe they drop. All I can say full house 357's out of a snubby are not fun to shoot. I carry a .45, but my wife carries a G19 with 9mm +P JHP's and I am comfy with that. She is 5'3 and can put 16 rounds in a B27 target and reload and clear jams( of course this is not under the extreme pressure of a self defense scenario), what more do you want from a NON gun person........

Lots of arguing about calibers, just put them on target or the bad guy and

 

[Certaindeaf]

People have voted Democrat for 75 years. You want to brag about that? I've only got 30 years of constant shooting in me. 4,000+ rounds a year in just .38/.357, since it is apparently a contest.

"High-performance" .357 ammunition has been around about forever.. not so much 9mm.. I've been shooting it for a long time.

 

[clambo]

I may as well chime in too. Back in the day, say 1980 or so....everyone shot revolvers. Why ? Because it was more or less all there was to shoot excluding the .45. Some of us shot the .45 too but you did not have 5,000 makes/models to choose from. Unless you were pretty well heeled financially you built your own. Most of us went through a number of barrels learning how to make a .45 shoot reliably. Actually, I never did, but my friend was a retired Air Force pistol team builder.
Back to .357's....You had 3 basic kinds. Smith and Wesson, Dan Wesson, and Ruger. They all made excellent guns. To be different you were sorta limited. One can only own so many .357 combinations before it's a moot point. We all handloaded of course and there are only so many things you can do with a 158 gr. JHP. That's all we used. There were a few guys who were shooting 125 gr. or some such but everyone was worried about bubbleguming up their K-frames so no one I knew used them. A .357 snubby meant a 2.5" Model 19 in most cases, although you could get Dan Wesson barrels in that length and Ruger made snubby Security Sixes too. Just didn't see many of them. Remember, no internet. No online gun auctions or forums. There was probably a LOT of bubblegum we had never seen before.
I was quite happy with the world back then. 6 .357 bullets or 7 from a .45 seemed like all a man might ever need. Imagine that ! Then one day I stopped at a cop friend's house and was handed the future. A GLOCK 19 ! I played with it an could not for the life of me figure it out. No hammer, no safety, etc. Just how in the hell is THIS gonna work ? A 9mm ? GASP ! Don't they know Lugers haven't been popular in 40 years ? Probably not as it's from AUSTRIA ! Jesus Christ ! And who on Earth would ever build a PLASTIC gun ? bubblegum me runnin' ! God cop friend, get a new gun ! Hell, I'll give you one ! Burn it before it spreads ! Wait, no worries there, no one will ever buy it. A fad that will end in 6 mo. Thank you Jesus ! I gave my cop friend back his Glock and his plastic mag full of 115 FMJ ( That's really what he had in it too. ) and went on my way.

I blinked. 20 or so years went by and the world changed so much I sometimes don't even know if I want to live. I do own a GLOCK and I have nothing against 9mm particularly but I let my daughter keep it for SD/house gun. I have complete faith in the 9mm and anything else above it. Today's ammo is so much better. I prefer my .45, still have the same one....and I still carry a K-frame 2 1/2". I don't feel outgunned. The world may have changed but for most of us the threat level didn't magically ramp up. If I feel really threatened I sometimes carry 2 K-frames. bubblegum, I forgot what the topic was. Sorry. I love this board

 

[clambo]

You are again wrong. I do understand. "The dynamic of a gunfight"? The real problem is those that believe they understand the dynamics of a gunfight because they read a book by someone that has never been in one, like Maasad Ayoob(I'm a fan, but he talks like he has been there and has not.). I personally have put large bullets into flesh, and my reading is from the likes of Charley Askins, who was there many times. But enough of that. I believe you and I see eye to eye on a lot of things and arguing this is silly.

The fact is that I will concede the 9mm to be a fine defensive gun. However, the only reason it is our military sidearm is because the higher-ups were too afraid of recoil. The same reason the FBI decided they couldn't handle the 10mm and that many PD's dropped the .41mag(or never gave it a chance at all).

In the history of firearms there are folks that argue big vs. little(Keith vs. O'Connor) or fast vs. slow(USA vs. Britain). My experiences(real experiences, not what I read and want to believe) tell me that a heavy bullet is where it's at. In this argument, the example would be a 125 being severely hampered by a denim jacket or completely stopped by a button on that jacket. Never in a million years would I stand in front of a 9mm because it is "underpowered". Bullet construction is so amazing these days that a .380 is a violently expanding death pill. As I said many times before, a 9mm does NOTHING for me, to each his own.

Two bonus points for pointing out that Massad Ayoob aka God talks a great game but has never actually been in a gunfight. The only time his body armor ever saved his life was when he crashed his Jeep and hit the steering post. Lets leave the pompous, condescending, know it all, bubblegum stuff to those who are better equipped, such as myself ! Seriously, I'm sure he knows some bubblegum and he's damn good at selling himself but Askins he ain't.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I think he just left a comma out.

 

[Netspirit]