Share your hand loading mistakes!

[Caveman Jim]

I'm lazy -- I just write a letter on the cartridges and keep track in a separate spreadsheet.

Caveman don't have computer in shop, write it in a log book, by hand...

 

[awshoot]

Caveman don't have computer in shop, write it in a log book, by hand...

I like to be able to read what I wrote, so I do. ;-)

 

[Caveman Jim]

Ok, a very recent one setting up the 300BLK powder drop die in the turret after the Pro1000 went Tittts up.

 

[Caveman Jim]

I like to be able to read what I wrote, so I do. ;-)

I've been told that I have very nice penmanship.

 

[nammac]

Ok, a very recent one setting up the 300BLK powder drop die in the turret after the Pro1000 went Tittts up.

View attachment 710833

Ummm... Wow...

 

[DLS]

Nice crimp ... for a blank cartridge! !!!

 

[Caveman Jim]

Ummm... Wow...

Well I was thinking that the lock nuts would work to transfer on both but alas, it won't...

And that is how I made Jetson bullets too back when I setup my first press.

 

[tac]

My dad bought some reloads from a local respected gunsmith. I took the Model 88 Winchester .243 out to shoot ground squirrels at long range. The first shot kicked like a mule and when I opened the action the primer fell out of the case. Being young and foolish, I tried another shot. I had to pry the lever action open and the primer fell out again.

We took the rest of the ammo back to the gunsmith shop. Upon inspection it was determined that instead of the right amount of 4350, SOMEONE had loaded the correct amount of Ball C powder. We never fired anyone else's reloads again.

Ah, the benefits of living in a shooters' paradise, eh? Here in Europe it is illegal to sell homeloads, which is basically what you were buying from your LGS. Only factory-manufactured ammunition can legally be sold to a customer, and all that ammunition has had to be batch-tested first under the rules ENFORCED in national law by the CIP regulations.

To make ammunition for sale in ANY of the CIP nations, the maker must submit a number of test rounds.

We are not talking half a dozen here, but 20,000 lots. Any new calibre that you guys come up with from time to time has to be referenced with a LOT of tests of the cartridge AND gun together - all this, of course, costs. A lot. But we don't seem to suffer ammunition whoopsies the way that you do.

 

[CLT65]

To legally sell remanufactured ammo here, you have to be licensed and insured. Under a system like you have there, small businesses like The Proficient Marksman, who put out a good product at a fair price, could not exist.

I'm not convinced that "safer", due to heavy regulation, is necessarily always better.

 

[Bon Sauvage]

Dry balling a muzzleloader.

NOTE: that's dry balling NOT dry balls which is a totally separate issue.

 

[tac]

Post script for reference, as Capn Jack seems to find my posts useful. What about SAAMI, I hear some of you say? Sure, we have standards over here in the US that are the equal of any ol' standards you might have come up with in Yoorup.

All true, more or less - SAAMI DOES set certain standards of dimensional data for both cartridges AND their chambering, and, most importantly, chamber pressures achieved by them.

In fact, here is a pic of MY SAAMI documention ready to paw in case anybody ever asks me to help out with that data...



BUT, and here is the BIG But - all SAAMI data is described on the front cover as 'Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for etc.....'.

In other words, if you make guns or ammunition in the USA, you can adhere to them or not - nobody can enforce the figures - there is NO legal requirement to do so. There are no Federal Proof Houses, not even state proof houses, like the Germans had prior to the Unification of Germany in 1871, or even Italy, in 1861.

With no compulsion to stick to the recommended figures, your LGS can make ammunition of any calibre and sell it to you as 'good stuff, bin makin' it fer years' ammunition. I'm sure that much of it is good, but you just never know when he might have had a bad day, if he's only making a couple of hundred rounds for you, instead of a million.

So who tests your factory ammunition?

Why, Sirs, the makers test it, using the SAAMI figures, and indeed, they mark the boxes containing the products appropriately.

But here is a problem.

Those SAAMI figures are not legally-binding constraints, although they are well-thought-out and scientific data accrued by meticulous experimentation. US-made ammunition that complies only with the SAAMI recommendations can not be sold here in yUK/Yoorup - indeed, in fourteen nations on earth so far.

The CIP is not exactly new - read the background -

Firearm safety tests were made compulsory at the beginning of the 16th century, for instance in Styria (Austria) by decree of Maximilian I of Habsburg on the 12th of September 1501, 1589 in London (England) , and in the 17th century in Liége ( Belgium). At that time, proofing was executed by "proofers" at public places. All firearms of reputable brands were proofed this way. Proof testing is compulsory in Belgium since the decree of Maximilian Henry of Bavaria dated May 10, 1672. The Liège Proof House was created at this occasion. Progressively, national proof houses were set up in other countries and proof marks were introduced.

In 1914, the director of the Liège Proof House in Liège, Mr. Joseph Fraikin (director from 1908 to 1946), was the originator of the creation of the Permanent International Commission for Firearms Testing.

The C.I.P. has progressively established a set of uniform rules for the proofing of firearms and ammunition to ensure the reciprocal recognition of the proof marks of each member states.

A conventionbetween 8 member states was signed in 1969, ratified and converted into law in each signing state, so that the rules can be enforced to assure that every firearm and cartridge on the market has successfully passed the compulsory proofing and approval.

In 2014, The C.I.P. celebrated the centenary of its foundation July 15, 1914. It was created just a few days before the First World War (August 1, 1914).

Here in the RoW, fourteen nations have so far gotten together under the CIP banner - here is the blurb -

The Commission internationale permanente pour l'épreuve des armes à feu portatives ("Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms" – commonly abbreviated as C.I.P.) is an international organisation which sets standards for safety testing of firearms. (The word portatives ("portable") in the name refers to the fact the C.I.P. tests small arms almost exclusively; it is ordinarily omitted from the English translation of the name.) As of 2015, its members are the national governments of 14 countries, of which 11 are European Union member states. The C.I.P. safeguards that all firearms and ammunition sold to civilian purchasers in member states are safe for the users.*

To achieve this, all such firearms are first proof-tested at C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses. The same applies for cartridges; at regular intervals, cartridges are tested against the C.I.P. pressure specifications at the ammunition manufacturing plants and at C.I.P. accredited Proof Houses.

*This means, of course, that ALL arms and ammunition made outside those 14 signaturee nations have to be proof-tested before they can be sold within the countries who are signed up to the CIP laws. Yes, LAWS. for the safety of its citizens, the CIP laws are written into the legal fabric of the signaturee nations in the form of Acts of Parliament. or their equivalent. Here in yUK they are called collectively The Proof Act, and are fully part of the law of the land.

Blame Henry VIII - it was all HIS idea in the first place.

To show you what the proof marks look like here in yUK - here is my now-deactivated 6" bbl Model 29 - BNP = Birmingham Nitro Proof, the crossed sceptres date the proof at 1970. The 10 TONS PER square sign are the maximum working pressure in PSI.



As it's a revolver, every chamber got proof-tested, too -



I apologise for the usual long-winded post for which I am infamous on this site, but I feel that every now and then, you need a gentle reminder just how easy things are for you, by comparison with the rest of the Free World.

Here in CIP land, selling a gun that is un-proofed is illegal under common law, as is selling ammunition that you or a buddy has made for money. You can GIVE him ammunition that you have made, working on the premise that he will forgive you if it blows his gun - and maybe his hand - into soggy tatters, but he has no legal comeback except to sue you for causing him injury. Good luck with that one.

Maybe the CIP stuff isn't so useless after all.

 

[CLT65]

Respectfully and with genuine curiosity, do you think that we would be well served to adopt CIP here in the U.S., even though it means running small manufacturers out of business and increasing costs?

The vast majority of kabooms I've heard of are people shooting their personal reloads.

 

[Mikej]

A similar occurrence for me also, now I write the charge weight on the cartridge itself with a Sharpie. Problem solved and I can inspect every one knowing it's correct designation.

View attachment 710686

View attachment 710687 View attachment 710688

Does the marker come of the brass with walnut tumbling? 'Cause I don't want no black writing left on my brass!

 

[Caveman Jim]

Does the marker come of the brass with walnut tumbling? 'Cause I don't want no black writing left on my brass!

Mike, sad but not all comes off during tumbling but I'll give you a tip for removing sharpie marks from anything, finger nail polish remover....
Your welcome.

 

[tac]

Respectfully and with genuine curiosity, do you think that we would be well served to adopt CIP here in the U.S., even though it means running small manufacturers out of business and increasing costs?

The vast majority of kabooms I've heard of are people shooting their personal reloads.

IMO, since you asked, the USA is simply too big to adopt any single organisation that was intended to effect some QC over the arms and ammunition manufacturing capabilities of small, independent nations, all of which added up - for the most part - would fit inside the USA with room to spare.

I'm not here to posit the death of the US arms and ammunition manufacturing groundbase, simply to point out to you what the rest of the so-called Free World does to safeguard civilian shooters.

Does the lack of supervised QC concern you? Remember that litigation is a way of life in the USA, like it or not, and that any manufacturer producing less than safe firearms or ammunition is more than likely to have his clock cleaned, buffed and put right before can raise a finger.

 

[CLT65]

Does the lack of supervised QC concern you?

Thank you for the reply. To be honest it doesn't concern me, though I rarely shoot factory ammo other than rimfire. I have shot a huge quantity of various military surplus over the years, from numerous countries often made in wartime conditions, so I've seen my share of questionable and downright bad ammo. I've seen licensed and insured commercial reloads at gun shows that I wouldn't care to shoot, too, but in general I just don't think it's a substantial problem.

I'm curious as to what someone in the industry thinks. Oremike, if you see this, any thoughts?

 

[oremike]

For me, I'm a manufacturer but do remanufacture ammo as well and test everything myself. The difference between manufacturing and remanufacturing is the brass. If I use new Starline then the ammo is manufactured, if I use range pick up brass then it's remanufactured. It's exactly the same ammo and held to my standards either way. You are right that there is limited industry standards. People are always asking me if my loads are hot or mild, as compared to some other brand. All I can give them is the data I collect shooting my ammo out of my guns over my chronograph on a given day and my personal opinion based on 40 years of experiance. I will add that all my loads can be found "in the book" to give me an extra layer of protection if there ever is a problem. Going back to the chronograph, if a shoot a 357 Mag load out of my 4" GP-100 and get MV average and someone else shoots the same load out of a 2" revolver or 10" barrel with a locked breach they will very different averages. As far as some sort of government testing, well I'm not a fan of more or bigger government and I'm sure it would be expencive so I'd quit the business and go fishing or something.

 

[tac]

Please to remember that this was not always a government thing - it was originally, in England at least, a way of safeguarding the trade of gun making - at ALL levels, cannon included - from those using spurious practices in this potentially deadly trade. The gun maker whose guns had an annoying habit of disintegrating was bringing all his fellow gun makers down with him if there had not been accepted standards by which to abide/comply.

 

[DLS]

While originally "not a government thing" it most certainly is now. And there lies the problem.

You don't need a governmental entity to create and hold to standards. In fact industry self-regulation (in a society that has adequate access to law to enforce contracts and seek damages) has throughout history shown to be better at enforcing standards at a far less onerous cost, in time, cost and complexity. This is better for society at large as it does not diminish choice, competition and quality, but rather encourages it to not only grow but to blossom.

While there are more reasons that this that the industrial revolution was far more robust and beneficial (in total and per capita measurements) in the US than in Europe at large (the combined output of Europe during this time paled to the output of the US alone) it is one of the more important reasons.

Let's not forget the industrial revolution, for all of its problems, made the middle class possible, made goods and service available to the vast majority of persons that were only available to the very wealthy prior and raised the standard of living for each and every human living in the areas affected by the revolution. It was the single biggest cause of poverty reduction in human history. Prior to this a fraction of one percent lived in relative wealth, the rest of humanity lived at a meager survival levels.

Rules like the CIP enforce are wasteful, byzantine and do nothing to add to the safety or quality of the products regulated. In other words we can do better at far less cost ... such as the systems in place currently in the US. Ammo and firearm failure rates are so rare as to be out in the 5 and 6 Sigma range, and the CIP regulated producers can not claim a better result.

When proof-houses were entities that resided within the industry itself they served their function very well without creating the labyrinth of regulation and cost (at no better levels of quality) that you now see in the modern-day incarnations of these historical artifacts.

 

[Deathgrip]

Dry-balling a muzzleloader....
There are those that have and those that will.

I've been lucky enough to be able to get anough powder behind the ball to shoot it out. The traditional side locks cut you some slack occasionally...