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Saiga 5.45 Accuracy

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by commandernavi, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. commandernavi

    commandernavi United States New Member

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    Hello everybody,

    I was just hoping to get some advice regarding a recent purchase I made. I recently bought a Saiga 5.45 and a very nice Kalinka Optics POSP 6X scope for it. I haven’t converted the rifle at all and have been using mostly soviet milsurp spam can ammo. I have been out to the range with it only three times now (don't have that much experience with rifles otherwise) and realize that I am shooting an AK, but I have seen much tighter groups at 100 yards from others online. I have tried weighing my gun down as much as possible with sand bags (basically immobile) at the range to prevent any movement and being as steady on the trigger as possible, but I haven’t achieved accuracy a lot of people show off on youtube for their Saiga 5.45’s and I am wondering why.

    Here is the kind of accuracy I am getting:
    photobucket.com/saiga545

    Here is a video of somebody shooting a saiga with much better accuracy:
    golden tiger 5.45mm vs 7n6 - YouTube

    What is wrong? Do you think my gun is to blame, the ammo (which is mil-spec and probably more accurate than consumer stuff), my scope (it is on there tight and well-built) or me (even though I have weighed it down immensely)?

    I just don't know and since I don't have anything more accurate and people around are saying they get 2 moa all day with surplus, I am getting very discouraged and upset with my gun. I really like it and if not for people saying and showing how much better they are with it, I wouldn't be upset. But since they are shooting much better, I want to know, what is wrong/not as good as what they have?

    I have asked and gotten some feedback on it here: (forum.Saiga-12.com ), but would like some more from some more people. Thank you very much for your opinions guys.
     
  2. trainsktg

    trainsktg Portland OR Well-Known Member

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    Welcome!

    First I would take that scope off and shoot open sights. If that scope isn't adjusted properly for tightness (or if the reticule is loose inside) your points of impact will be all over the place. If the scope is the culprit you should see your groups improve immensely.

    I would also ask 'Do you know how to properly shoot?' and I don't mean that flippantly. Do you know what a cheek weld, natural-point-of-aim, sight picture and MOA are? If not, that could explain some of your results. If you think you could use improvement in that area, I would suggest studying US Army or Marine rifleman training manuals or taking an Appleseed course.

    I'm mostly a self-taught marksman, and I'm sure my technique is abysmally poor compared to competition military shooters, but using only open sights, Mk 1 eyeball and reading glasses (I can't see the sights close up without them) I keep my all of my SKSs within 4 to 5 MOA, my AKs about 4 to 6 and most of my bolt actions 3 to 4.

    Keith
     
  3. Godfather911

    Godfather911 Springfield, OR. Member

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    I would do what Keith suggested. Take off the scope and BZO the weapon at 50yds. If possible. That will give you a battle sight zero at 200yds. (rise and fall of the round etc) research that on the web if you have any questions. I also suggest you get with other competent shooters. They might be able to coach you on proper breathing/breathe control, stance, shooting positions etc...
    You have to let the weapon recoil some. Putting sandbags on top? I wouldn't recommend that. Being a 5.45 round it would recoil hardly at all to begin with. Not trying to bust your balls or anything.
    If you just purchased it and it's pretty much brand new, I wouldn't suspect it's the weapon. 9 out of 10 times, it's the shooter. Ammo can play a part, but I doubt that also.
    I have a Romanian INTRAK / SAR-2, AK-74, chambered in 5.45 also. I use corrosive Russian ammo with no problems. Just clean the weapon after EVERY range/shooting session.

    I am a former Marine, infantry MOS field. If you have any questions, post them up. Remember. Proper breathing, correct stance and trigger control play a HUGE part. Start there and work your way to questioning the weapon and ammo. Don't get discouraged..
    I love my 74. Shoots darts honestly...so will your's.
     
  4. commandernavi

    commandernavi United States New Member

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    Thanks for the advice guys. I just put the sandbags everywhere I possibly could so there would be absolutely no sway whatsoever. I hoped it would cancel out any lack of skill I may have had. That thing was rock solid. I really do hope that it is me. I want to get somebody better to shoot it to see. Not quite sure until I do that. Since it has the stock trigger, most other shooters would find it a bit strange I think and may get even poorer results due to stiff and really long trigger pull.

    I clean my gun very very well. :) I pamper them a bit with how long and thoroughly I do it, but I think it is worth it in the end. Could consistency with how I look in the scope (even when it is completely bench rested and entirely unmovable) be a problem? I dont think it is, so I am not sure how consistently I have been looking through it. Ideas?
     
  5. motoman98

    motoman98 Gresham, OR Active Member

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    I put a red dot sight(side mounted) on my newly purchased AK 74 and tried it at 100 yds. Very disappointing. Couldn't keep it on a pc of 8 1/2 x 11 paper for a group and I've been shooting along time. Gonna mount a little 4x scope and try it again.
    Although it looks good, I'm not impressed with this rifle.
     
  6. trainsktg

    trainsktg Portland OR Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely how you look through it will affect your POI. Its called parallax. Although difficult to explain in writing, a good way to eliminate parallax error is, as you look through the scope, to line up the blurred image of the front sight with your reticule, horizontally as well as vertically, exactly the same, every shot. And you can't do that without a proper cheek weld. A normal cheek weld is difficult to do with Combloc scopes because they sit so high, so I tend to roll my head downwards ('kissing the stock as it were'), obtain a cheek weld with the front of my cheekbone instead of the side, and shoot with the opposite eye. It looks weird but works really really well. Its a great feeling to get better groups using a stock military rifle while lying on a rug in the mud than the guy next to you with does with his benched rifle and scope as he chases his bullets all over the target trying to zero his scope.

    I would again emphasize to eliminate the scope immediately and see if your groups improve, at least marginally. A scope will not make you a better shooter.

    I would also like to point out what Godfather911 said; learn good breathing control and proper shooting positions. I would also suggest you look at eliminating the 'crutch' of the bench. Nearly all of my shooting is done from position, usually prone. The way I see it, you can't take a bench with you into the field, so you might as well start off right learning to shoot lying down, kneeling, etc. Plus, hardly anyone else does it and I like being different.

    'Appleseed' is a good place to start. A no better weekend with your rifle could you ever spend anywhere else.

    Good luck :) .

    Keith
     
  7. Grunwald

    Grunwald Out of that nut job colony of Seattle, WA Well-Known Member

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    Have you given any thought to letting someone else shoot it. If someone who you see gettings tight groups with his rifle takes yours and does the same, then you know the problem is you. If that's the case, get a lesson from someone and then practice, pracfice , practice.
     
  8. commandernavi

    commandernavi United States New Member

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    Interesting. I never realized that this could ever even be a problem. Do you think that the POSP scope I am using even has this problem? Since I don't really have a cheek-weld with the scope riding so high up, I haven't been incredibly consistent. I will try without the scope, but to be honest, I am not that good a shot at all without the scope. I don't like the blade sights that much as I find them hard to use accurately. I know it is no excuse, but I still don't think my groups will improve from it. I will try to give it a shot when I head down to the range next.

    Also, how many shots can I expect to take until the barrel heats up to the point of being too hot to fire with any consistency?

    I will try to find somebody more qualified to shoot it next time at the range.