Question : Billet AR-15 Better Than Forged?

[skydiver]

I'm planning on a AR build.

Are the billet lowers and uppers (i.e. Mega for example) really worth the extra money over forged?

I knew you guys would be the ones that would know.

thanks!

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[mjbskwim]

Go here

AR15.Com - Your Firearm Resource. (AR-15, AR-10, M4 Carbine, M16, H&K, SIG, FNH, FAL, AK-47, 50 Cal, M1/M1A, Handgun, Pistol, Training, Hunting, and More!)

And here

m4carbine.net

 

[Spadkarma]

Only if you want to write about it in Firearms forums rather than shooting or hunting with them. I would spend that extra money in the barrel, trigger or otics.

 

[PDXSparky]

Only if you want to write about it in Firearms forums rather than shooting or hunting with them. I would spend that extra money in the barrel, trigger or otics.

^ this

Buy a name brand forged lower and don't look back.

 

[madcratebuilder]

The billet receivers may or may not be as strong as a mil-spec forged 70775 receiver. It well depend on the outside dimensions, given the same size, forged is slightly stronger. Billet receivers normally offer a sightly different finished shape than the forged units. Some billet uppers are oversize for increased stiffness for long barreled target builds. Both are strong enough, pick the options you want, just avoid cast or polymer/carbonfiber.

Is it worth the extra money? Only you can decide that, does it fill your needs?

 

[nubus]

My MEGA ARMS billet lower mates perfectly to the profile on the billet monolithic upper.
Otherwise I would not have bothered.

 

[deadshot2]

There is a definite difference between strengths, forged vs. CNC

Here's a good explanation from a metallurgical stand point rather than a "marketing view".

The strongest result is usually from forging. As metal cools, it forms "grains". The grains are strong, but they don't "stick" to each other perfectly. So castings may well break, and if you look at the break, it will show a bumpy "matte" surface, as it will have separated between individual grains. In metalurgists terms, it shows poor ductility.

When you forge a piece of metal, the high pressures "collapses" the individual grains. The result is a little denser, and will tend to bend rather than break. It can be a lot stronger than a casting, or the same shape cut out of a flat lump of metal. The surface, since it took the highest loads will often be the strongest, and the less you can disturb this surface, the tougher the part. A break may actualy show a fairly shiny surface, as the space between the "grains" is gone. The direction of flow as the metal is squeezed imparts a grain structure to the metal that is a bit like that of wood, making it substantially stronger in specific directions. Well-designed forging tools and dies control this flow so as to make the part strongest in the directions it is expected to be stressed in.

CNC is popular because it allows someone to manufacture just a few parts for far less cost than creating the necessary high strength dies, and buying the huge presses necessary to forge the same parts.

If you want "stylish" buy CNC. If you aren't as concerned about appearances and "uber-cool", just want a nice strong receiver, buy forged.

 

[deadshot2]

deadshot I was looking for that exact quote but could not find it. Where did you dig it up?

I used my Google-Fu. Can't remember exactly where.

 

[madcratebuilder]

CNC is popular because it allows someone to manufacture just a few parts for far less cost than creating the necessary high strength dies, and buying the huge presses necessary to forge the same parts.

All manufacturers get the raw forging from the same two or three makers. The raw forging has a higher cost than a piece of billet, BUT, the billet part requires much more machine time and that increases the cost factor. That's why billet receiver generally cost more than forged. Billet receiver gives the builder more options than the forged receivers. Pick your poison.

If you want "stylish" buy CNC. If you aren't as concerned about appearances and "uber-cool", just want a nice strong receiver, buy forged.

This is not always true. There are billet uppers specifically designed with increased strength for heavy barreled competition builds. Obviously if your building for CQC you want a forged upper. Depends on what the end goal is.

 

[SICARIO]

As far as the strength between forged and machines, there is such a small difference that we will never see the differences as shooters.

Casting, forging and machining are all processes dependent on economics.

If a part is in low production, or a specialty part, you machine it. If the part is high production and of simple design, you forge it. If the part is too complex to forge or machine, you cast it. That's how it works in the aerospace industry. There's really no significant difference in strength since heat treating and HIP process are used to treat the metal.

 

[deadshot2]

As far as the strength between forged and machines, there is such a small difference that we will never see the differences as shooters.

Casting, forging and machining are all processes dependent on economics.

If a part is in low production, or a specialty part, you machine it. If the part is high production and of simple design, you forge it. If the part is too complex to forge or machine, you cast it. That's how it works in the aerospace industry. There's really no significant difference in strength since heat treating and HIP process are used to treat the metal.

Ask Olympic Arms how those investment cast receivers worked for them. Apparently they didn't consult the Aerospace industry.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Ask Olympic Arms how those investment cast receivers worked for them. Apparently they didn't consult the Aerospace industry.

Cast aluminum is an exception.

Ruger uses cast steel
SAI uses cast steel
S&W uses mim steel

Modern production methods are well proven, the debate about MIM vs cast vs forged vs billet is mostly just chatter.

 

[robbalot]

Yeah, save your money. The rifle is only the beginning of an AR, you can expect to drop another 50 to 75% on the condiments. ARs are kinda like making a really great sub sandwich, you start with a good roll and then pile on all your favorite stuff until you can't even fit in in your mouth.

Then you post on the couch with a bloated belly, moaning cuz you can't believe you ate the whole thing.

 

[deadshot2]

Yeah, save your money. The rifle is only the beginning of an AR, you can expect to drop another 50 to 75% on the condiments. ARs are kinda like making a really great sub sandwich, you start with a good roll and then pile on all your favorite stuff until you can't even fit in in your mouth.

Then you post on the couch with a bloated belly, moaning cuz you can't believe you ate the whole thing.

Probably the best description of an AR I've ever read.

Let's also not overlook the fact that history has shown that battles and wars are not always won by those with the "fanciest" weapons. Wonder how many of our troops died in Vietnam when shot by a Vietcong carrying an old pre-WWII MAS-36? Or in Afghanistan by a mujihahideen with a Mosin-Nagant?

 

[taters613]

One theory I have about any part that is "CNC machined from solid billet" is this: This process provides a strong positive incentive for the manufacturer to use softer metals, as this reduces wear on the cutting parts of the CNC machine (and replacing these parts is a large part of the overall expense). This incentive is greatly reduced for cast or forged parts, since milling is only used for the final shaping of the part.
So: even though its theoretically true that a part machined from solid billet can be extremely strong, I'd say that these parts are more likely "exactly as strong as they need to be", and not much stronger (especially in terms of hardness). The hardness of a cast or forged part, on the other hand, is limited more by the physics of the process, rather than by the financial considerations of the manufacturer.

 

[HB of CJ]

Forged aluminiumiumm first. Billet second. Cast third. Plastic or poly last. But .... I matched-fitted uppers and lowers 20 at a time and still had to had fit a couple. About 2-3 were perfect fits, the rest so so and the aformentioned hanger queens.

Just me.

hundreds of builds.

 

[arakboss]

 

[slimmer13]

I wonder if the OP has been waiting and checking this thread for the last 9years for someone to finally get to the bottom of this. Well wait no longer my friend, you can now complete your build.

 

[arakboss]

lol, oldie but goodie