Duty ammo thread.

[DeanfromOregon]

My apologies if this has already been covered. I was wondering what some of the local agencies use for duty ammo. I know what I like to carry but there is also that school of thought that if you carry the same as local law enforcement you will be less likely to give an advantage to any civil case opposing counsel should you be involved in a defensive shooting situation.

Pistol, rifle, shotgun. I live in rural Clackamas county but I would be up for hearing about any agencies.

-Dean

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[Nick Burkhardt]

Our Chief told me that they use Speer Gold Dot for their pistols and Hornady TAP in their AR rifles.

 

[Diamondback]

When I first started CCW, most Puget Sound LE favored Speer Gold Dots but last I knew many agencies were switching to Federal HST. (EDIT: Full disclosure, .45ACP 230-grain JHP.)

Dean, another fan of Mas? (He trained the man who educated me, and has been more than generous with his time and expertise mentoring me over the years.)

 

[DeanfromOregon]

I am a big fan of Mas! First time I heard it though was was from the staff at OFA. I try not to overthink things but lately I've been concerned about the ramifications of some of my ammo choices. I used to carry gold dots with the logic that it was the round my primary carry gun was designed around (Springfield Pro). I could explain that. I was strictly a 1911 guy for many years but lately have been expanding what I shoot so that I could become proficient with different platforms.

I love the ballistics and the feel of the critical duty, so as I added glocks, sig, and Cz into the rotation I started to switch up my carry ammo to the Hornady. Also added 10mm into the mix for the woods but am concerned about over penetration for an urban or residential setting.

So much for not overthinking things lol. It all started with that pesky g20!

-Dean

 

[No_Regerts]

Used to use Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P until our duty weapon manufacturer put out a memo that it did not recommend using +P or NATO spec ammo in their gun. Now, we use Federal 147gr HST. Still using Federal Tactical 00 Buck, Federal Tactical Bonded 55gr. Not sure about 308. I heard they were using Hornady TAP 155gr, but thats outside of my lane.

 

[nammac]

Federal HST has a real reputation on the street for its performance... Both the 230 gr 45 and the 147 gr 9 mm...

Ballistic gel performance videos on YouTube by tnoutdoors9 are very enlightening...

 

[Ura-Ki]

For 10 mm i run 180 gr GoldenSaber or HST's. The Rem Golden Saber's are also good at 200 gr as well. HST's are supposed to be as good at that weight, but I haven't tried them yet! I ran the HydroShoks for years and really had no trouble with them, but the newest test data shows them to less then ideal, especially on fast movers like the 10 mm!

 

[Diamondback]

Golden Sabers were also the FBI's .45 load of choice for a long time, perhaps because it's the closest to the ogive of GI hardball and thus was deemed the most reliable feeder for their HRT 1911's and the handful of Thompsons they still had around as o the mid-'80s.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I love um, They sure do feed nice and slick! They also make a great 9 mm load too!

 

[Diamondback]

You're gonna laugh at this... I used to be a technical consultant on a police-procedural-TV fan-fiction site, and once wrote a scene where a character best described as "an old, bitter and Royally P---ed Off Jason Bourne* joins the FBI" carried what was once J. Edgar's personal TSMG with a hundred GS's loaded in the drum, and gave the perp they were chasing a nice long clinical lecture about what the Golden Saber does inside the human body concluded with "of course, you're not going to feel very much because at six hundred rounds per minute** Little Edgar here is going to have you cleaved in half from right testicle to left eyeball in less than a second."
*Think the one from Robert Ludlum's novels, not the pansyass Matt Damon movie version
**Yes, I know a stock 1921A TSMG is set to cycle at about 850-950 RPM, a 1928 or M1 around 650--part of the restoration work I had written done on "Edgar" was retuning the Blish locks for 600 on the nose.

 

[U8395279]

My apologies if this has already been covered. I was wondering what some of the local agencies use for duty ammo. I know what I like to carry but there is also that school of thought that if you carry the same as local law enforcement you will be less likely to give an advantage to any civil case opposing counsel should you be involved in a defensive shooting situation.

Pistol, rifle, shotgun. I live in rural Clackamas county but I would be up for hearing about any agencies.

-Dean

To be honest, I think that this concern is more of an urban myth, than anything else. Check this webpage for what Massad Ayoob thinks of this issue:

Massad Ayoob: Gunfighting Fact vs. Fiction (http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/04/massad-ayoob-gunfighting-fact-vs-fiction/)

But if you want to play it safe, stay with name brands like Federal, Speer, and Hornady. A lot of the boxes even say Law Enforcement on them. Problem is, though, that these LE loads can be difficult to find. Do some ammo searches online, though, and you should hopefully find some online dealers with it in stock.

ammospy.net. ammoseek.com, and gunbot.net are all good online tools for searching for ammo.

 

[Diamondback]

If it helps, the product number on the Dots is 53966 for a 50-round brick. (The 20's at normal retail are 23966, you can usually find the Good Stuff at cop-supply shops or ranges/gunshops with a heavy LE clientele.)

 

[DeanfromOregon]

I know it probably is more of a myth but watching that Zimmerman trial got into my head. They tried to demonize "fully loaded". I just imagined them reading the ad for critical duty at my trial and got chills.

My grandfather killed a man that broke into his shop that he had an apartment above. No charges but the civil proceedings were a real circus. Family legend material these days.

I do tend to overthink things.

 

[Diamondback]

I will agree that Mas is sometimes overconservative, but since he can't tailor his classes to each individual jurisdiction's legal quirks and individual DA he kind of has to start by "assuming the worst"--and there ARE militantly anti-gun cops and prosecutors out there, or even just elected hacks looking for a notch on their belt, that will do anything it takes to get a conviction and to hell with truth or justice. I'd rather bet my life--and let's face it, with defensive advice that's exactly what you're doing--on the counsel of someone who errs on the side of caution and has a long history asa respected instructor and expert-witness.

Two words: "Mike Nifong."

 

[DeanfromOregon]

Golden Sabers were also the FBI's .45 load of choice for a long time, perhaps because it's the closest to the ogive of GI hardball and thus was deemed the most reliable feeder for their HRT 1911's and the handful of Thompsons they still had around as o the mid-'80s.

Doh! Golden sabre is what I used to carry in the Springfield! Had a hard time finding them during the dark times!

 

[U8395279]

Doh! Golden sabre is what I used to carry in the Springfield! Had a hard time finding them during the dark times!

The Golden Sabre Hollowpoint is a proven design. It was created by the same engineer who designed the Hydra Shok Hollowpoint for Federal. Remington wanted something similar, so he came up with a new design for them, that did not infringe on Federal's Hydra Shok patent.

If one wants a higher velocity 45 load, it pretty much is right up at the top. Its 185 gr +P loading leaves a 1911 at 1,165 fps, which is quite fast for a 45 bullet. And that is also a whopping 558 ft/lbs of energy!

I'm sure that these bullets would hurt a lot. They perform well going through barriers and clothing too:



The above bullets were shot through real world situations such as through heavy clothing and barriers, which is why they are somewhat deformed, and don't look picture perfect like a bullet shot into ballistic gelatin.

Testing in ballistic gelatin of this +p load showed an amazing average expansion to .75 caliber! That is second best out of ANY 45 ACP load. Only Federal's HST loadings tested better, coming in at .80 caliber for the standard pressure load, and .85 caliber for the +P version, Take a look at how the Golden Sabre performed:




The standard pressure Golden Saber 185 gr .45 load expanded almost as well, to a .74 caliber average. It has 100 fps less velocity, but would not recoil quite so bad.

Here is a link to a review of the Golden Saber .45 ACP +P 185 grain JHP:

Ammo Review: Remington Golden Saber .45 ACP +P 185 grain JHP - My Gun Culture (http://mygunculture.com/remington-golden-saber-45-acp-185-grain-jhp/)

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[Diamondback]

Doh! Golden sabre is what I used to carry in the Springfield! Had a hard time finding them during the dark times!

Logical, the FBI load for the FBI 1911.

 

[coop44]

If I could afford to practice with them I would carry them. But I am not subsidized by the taxpayer.

 

[Diamondback]

This is why you fire enough for function-check and reliability assurance, then switch to a hardball load at same spec from the same manufacture to train with. IIRC, the better brands usually do try to load their FMJ and JHP to have sufficiently similar ballistics for training.

 

[U8395279]

Logical, the FBI load for the FBI 1911.

Yep, you are right. While regular FBI agents have used the .40 S&W in the past, and have since transitioned to 9mm, all FBI tactical teams carry .45 pistols. I believe it is a mixture of 1911's and Glock 21's.

There were lots of FBI HRT team members at the Malheur Refuge Standoff recently. And they were all armed with .45's and short barrel M4 carbines. Their carbines had expensive EOTECH Holo sights with laser range finders. They cost almost as much as the carbine.

Here are some news photos of HRT members at Malheur, if anyone is interested in seeing how they are equipped for guns: