Police Should Carry Double Action Guns

[WillametteWill]

Regarding manual safeties, I have seen a number of folks - family, friends, coworkers, etc - let the rules go out the window because "the safety's on", which has resulted in loaded guns getting pointed in my direction on more than one occasion. I have no objections to people using guns with manual safeties, but I do think reinforcement of the 4 rules being followed regardless of safety being on or off is essential, especially for the... shall we say "less attentive" new gun owners.

Word.

I think of it as a supplement, absolutely not a replacement for any safety rule or mindset. I think @titsonritz mentioned something earlier about people relying on safeties, agree, they should not. It's about risk mitigation. We are handling guns. They are potentially dangerous if not done properly. I try to, and demonstrate to new students, do what I can to reduce risk while still carrying an effective defensive tool of last resort.

 

[WillametteWill]

Sure. If you are complacent and don't clear your garments before reholstering.

Fast coming out. Slow going in. (Let the sexual jokes fly).

There is more to training then just pulling the trigger.

(Emphasis added)

Agree, yet I see sooooooo many popular and famous trainers slamming their guns back in the holsters. Their pupils who are often in awe of them start to do the same thing, using SF guns with 3# triggers and no mechanical safety. And then Sig gets blamed for designing bad guns. Big pet peeve of mine. Complacency is an issue and stress is another one.

 

[RX-79G]

That's a mistake.

Glocks have passive safeties. A cocked 92FS does not.

They have the exact same passive safeties:
One the keeps the trigger from moving from an impact.
One that blocks the firing pin.
One that catches the hammer/striker.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Police should carry double action guns....Ehhh...maybe.
Don't really know or care to be honest.

What someone should do if they own , carry and or shoot firearms is....
Learn to use 'em safely.
Which means , in part...understanding how mechanical safeties work...
It also means not solely relying on a mechanical safety.
You are the final call , so speak in regards to firearm safety.

A safety that is always with you is simple :
Finger off the trigger , until you are ready to shoot...keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction...
And checking the firearm to see if it is loaded .

Neglecting any of the above , can lead to disaster , no matter what type of firearm.
Andy

 

[Koda]

The Education Foundation of our club started these exact classes this year. Classroom time with live fire, about three hours, no cost, no need to be a club member. Every class is filling up quickly. Unfortunately, we can only conduct one class per month. It has been awesome.

Regarding all the other stuff in this thread...

This is a thread filled with folks I've respected for years here, some I've even been on the line with while training. I'm a manual / thumb safety proponent, at least for new shooters to consider. I don't rely on them (NRA test question, safeties are a mechanical device that can fail) but I strongly believe they can add an extra layer of safety without negative impact.

IMHO...
I hear this statement, "You will forget to take the safety off under stress." You will forget to do a lot of things if you don't train. What about rifles and shotguns? When shooting and moving is a safety activated and then off when ready to fire? Having searched many areas of uneven terrain and gone backside over teakettle more than once, mechanical safeties or long pulls on DA guns add that extra layer.

Training is great but we need to understand our actions under stressful situations. There are studies out there showing that conducting many different types of actions can cause trigger finger movement. A study in Germany indicated about 20% of officers placed their fingers on triggers during training simulations using special training guns, many with enough pressure to pull triggers.

We frequently bash officer training but most officers have FAR more training than most non-officers, have to qualify, have many more opportunities to practice under stress, but as we see, still have plenty of ND, confusing guns with taser, etc.

Found an old article that detailed Washington DC police had 120 NDs with Glocks over 10 years after switching from revolvers. Apples to apples, NDs doubled with the Glocks (not blaming Glocks but comparing lighter triggers to 12 pound revolver triggers or DA/SA guns). Other studies show that NDs are more likely as trigger pulls get lighter.

I interact with LOTS of shooters that have very light triggers on their carry guns (below my 1911s) yet with no manual safety, yet if I duck taped my grip safety and pulled out the thumb safety on my 1911 it would be considered crazy (don't disagree on this BTW). IMHO, intellectual honesty is missing here. Sigs are touting 30% lighter trigger pulls on some of the models that are alleged to be shooting by themselves.

I think of the video of the officer re-holstering (what I have been told was a Glock) and then the gun going off when he bent over. It doesn't appear he did anything "wrong" but something likely found its way to the trigger, this happens often. With a mechanical safety, the chance of this happening approaches zero.

Great conversations in this tread, look forward to reading more.

I love this entire post, pretty much nails the entire conversation on all points. I love that you and your club are doing something for new shooters and making it free for them. I want to see people get paid for their time but this puts the bigger picture above everything, so many new gun owners need instruction that wont pay regardless of their financial situation or ignorant stubborness your getting them in the door and providing an experience they will learn and take home with them, thats saving lives.

 

[Koda]

I believe a lot of newbies are 'star struck' about guns, self defense, watch the YT videos of the comp/speed shooters and somehow think they need to have 100% safetyless speed and the ability to shoot lightening fast - and that is a part of the 'yea but' responses you get.

yes, there's too much focus on the type of gun especially around external safeties. In my experience when Ive been around experienced shooters who've been trained or regularly train and I very much respect, there is a slight disappointment if they find out I use a 1911. I shrug it off, its never held me back in class or casual practice with them or anyone but Id rather see the gun community help others find the right gun for them rather than the right gun they prefer to use. To me there is a small bit of intellectual dishonesty when someone reccommends their favorite gun to someone they dont know at all, rather than asking questions about need and use and considering maybe just maybe someone might be better suited with a gun with more safety features than a Glock.

As far as the "yeah but" its not just about action type and thumb safeties, its also about need, use, and other administrative applications like storage and kids. And I always ask them if they plan on reading legal training. "I want a gun for the house but can carry too in case...." I ask them about their living situation, storage options, legal training and the "yeah buts" come out.

 

[RX-79G]

Ive just never thought the 1911 was complicated. Its one of the simplest guns to learn in my book. Working a safety doesnt give a sense of security anymore than the safety on AR15s. If a newbie cant figure out a 1911 safely then Im definetely not gonna recommend any gun for them.

It has nothing to do with understanding.

Take your unloaded 1911, cock the hammer and put the safety on.
Now forcefully pull the trigger, then try to get the safety off.
Now try to do both at that same time.

The fact that you can lock up the trigger system by getting the order of operation slightly off in a rush is the downside to this kind of a safety. And if you are interested in proficiency, it would be wise to occasionally do this and force yourself to recognize how it feels so you can let off the trigger and safety to correct it.

(I haven't had a 1911 in awhile, so I can't remember - but I think you can lock up the trigger with the safety, meaning that you can't even release the trigger if the safety is being pushed down. They can each lock the other one up.)

 

[Koda]

It has nothing to do with understanding.

Take your unloaded 1911, cock the hammer and put the safety on.
Now forcefully pull the trigger, then try to get the safety off.
Now try to do both at that same time.

The fact that you can lock up the trigger system by getting the order of operation slightly off in a rush is the downside to this kind of a safety. And if you are interested in proficiency, it would be wise to occasionally do this and force yourself to recognize how it feels so you can let off the trigger and safety to correct it.

(I haven't had a 1911 in awhile, so I can't remember - but I think you can lock up the trigger with the safety, meaning that you can't even release the trigger if the safety is being pushed down. They can each lock the other one up.)

I think were talking about two different things here. Muscle memory or disengaging a safety under stress vs mechanics of a gun.
But I digress, short version: when I test this it doest lock up the trigger on any of my 1911s.

What -is- interesting is depending on how fine tuned the trigger is (ie hair trigger) dropping the safety while the trigger is held back will fire the gun. If you dont hold pressure on the trigger but keep it engaged with the sear, you can feel the safety let go of the sear... the hammer wont fall but thats a really really fine spot to hold.
Perhaps a 1911 gunsmith can chime in but I dont suspect thats a defect.

 

[Member 53328]

(Emphasis added)

Agree, yet I see sooooooo many popular and famous trainers slamming their guns back in the holsters. Their pupils who are often in awe of them start to do the same thing, using SF guns with 3# triggers and no mechanical safety. And then Sig gets blamed for designing bad guns. Big pet peeve of mine. Complacency is an issue and stress is another one.

Yea unfortunately people like to follow what they see. I am not the fastest shooter in the world but no matter what (especially when reholster AIWB) when I go to reholster everything slows way down.

Finger off the trigger - check
Clear garments - check
Visual look inside the holster - check
SLOWLY reintroduce the pistol into the holster waiting for the auditable click -check

Doesn't matter how fast I am, how many times I've done it, etc. it's always the same process.

I get a laugh when I see YouTubers doing transitioning drills from rifle to pistol and when they go back to rifle they just smash the pistol into the holster - no thanks.

There is nothing wrong with forcing yourself to slow down as you get done firing. In fact it's a very helpful and useful skill to have in real world scenarios. It just doesn't look as cool……

 

[Koda]

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final. You must learn to be slow in a hurry."- Wyatt Earp

 

[Xaevian]

Where's @solv3nt when you need him.

Name dropping, how clever

 

[homeuser6]

I tend to correct misinformation

you could start with this:
you can lock up the trigger with the safety, meaning that you can't even release the trigger if the safety is being pushed down. They can each lock the other one up.

 

[Koda]

you could start with this:
you can lock up the trigger with the safety, meaning that you can't even release the trigger if the safety is being pushed down. They can each lock the other one up.

note: I didnt experience this testing this. I was able to release the trigger, press the trigger, even put the safety back on. The hammer will fall if your pressing the trigger as you push the safety down.

 

[Member 53328]

Name dropping, how clever

His name has been dropped.

 

[RX-79G]

you could start with this:
you can lock up the trigger with the safety, meaning that you can't even release the trigger if the safety is being pushed down. They can each lock the other one up.

What happened to the "I think..." part of the quote?

 

[homeuser6]

you thought wrong, you can correct the misinformation now

 

[RX-79G]

you thought wrong, you can correct the misinformation now

I still don't have a 1911 in hand, but I am happy to leave any correction you'd like to post unchallenged.

 

[homeuser6]

I still don't have a 1911 in hand

i do

 

[Tilos]

so there's this:

Philadelphia officer placed on administrative leave after accidentally shooting man in Germantown

According to police, the man told the officer that he had just shot the dog around the corner and that his gun was in a holster on his side.

6abc.com

.

 

[RX-79G]

i do

Good. You should share what you know instead of berating someone about something they said they do not know.

That's generally how people communicate.