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Border Searches.—"That searches made at the border, pursuant to the longstanding right of the sovereign to protect itself by stopping and examining persons and property crossing into this country, are reasonable simply by virtue of the fact that they occur at the border, should, by now, require no extended demonstration."276

United States v. Ramsey, 431 U.S. 606, 616 (1977) (sustaining search of incoming mail). See also Illinois v. Andreas, 463 U.S. 765 (1983) (opening by customs inspector of locked container shipped from abroad).

Authorized by the First Congress,277

Act of July 31, 1789, ch. 5, §§ 23, 24, 1 Stat. 43. See 19 U.S.C. §§ 507, 1581, 1582.

the customs search in these circumstances requires no warrant, no probable cause, not even the showing of some degree of suspicion that accompanies even investigatory stops.278

Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132, 154 (1925); United States v. Thirty-Seven Photographs, 402 U.S. 363, 376 (1971); Almeida-Sanchez v. United States, 413 U.S. 266, 272 (1973).

Moreover, while prolonged detention of travelers beyond the routine customs search and inspection must be justified by the Terry standard of reasonable suspicion having a particularized and objective basis,279

United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531 (1985) (approving warrantless detention incommunicado for more than 24 hours of traveler suspected of alimentary canal drug smuggling).

Terry protections as to the length and intrusiveness of the search do not apply.280
Id. A traveler suspected of alimentary canal drug smuggling was strip searched, and then given a choice between an abdominal x-ray or monitored bowel movements. Because the suspect chose the latter option, the court disavowed decision as to "what level of suspicion, if any, is required for . . . strip, body cavity, or involuntary x-ray searches." Id. at 541 n.4.
Inland stoppings and searches in areas away from the borders are a different matter altogether. Thus, in Almeida-Sanchez v. United States,281

413 U.S. 266 (1973). Justices White, Blackmun, Rehnquist, and Chief Justice Burger would have found the search reasonable upon the congressional determination that searches by such roving patrols were the only effective means to police border smuggling. Id. at 285. Justice Powell, concurring, argued in favor of a general, administrative warrant authority not tied to particular vehicles, much like the type of warrant suggested for noncriminal administrative inspections of homes and commercial establishments for health and safety purposes, id. at 275, but the Court has not yet had occasion to pass on a specific case. See United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543, 547 n.2, 562 n.15 (1976).

the Court held that a warrantless stop and search of defendant's automobile on a highway some 20 miles from the border by a roving patrol lacking probable cause to believe that the vehicle contained illegal aliens violated the Fourth Amendment. Similarly, the Court invalidated an automobile search at a fixed checkpoint well removed from the border; while agreeing that a fixed checkpoint probably gave motorists less cause for alarm than did roving patrols, the Court nonetheless held that the invasion of privacy entailed in a search was just as intrusive and must be justified by a showing of probable cause or consent.282

United States v. Ortiz, 422 U.S. 891 (1975).
On the other hand, when motorists are briefly stopped, not for purposes of a search but in order that officers may inquire into their residence status, either by asking a few questions or by checking papers, different results are achieved, so long as the stops are not truly random. Roving patrols may stop vehicles for purposes of a brief inquiry, provided officers are "aware of specific articulable facts, together with rational inferences from those facts, that reasonably warrant suspicion" that an automobile contains illegal aliens; in such a case the interference with Fourth Amendment rights is "modest" and the law enforcement interests served are significant.283

United States v. Brignoni-Ponce, 422 U.S. 873 (1975). However, stopping of defendant's car solely because the officers observed the Mexican appearance of the occupants was unjustified. Id. at 886. Contrast United States v. Cortez, 449 U.S. 411 (1981), where border agents did have grounds for reasonable suspicion that the vehicle they stopped contained illegal aliens.

Fixed checkpoints provide additional safeguards; here officers may halt all vehicles briefly in order to question occupants even in the absence of any reasonable suspicion that the particular vehicle contains illegal aliens.284
United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543 (1976). The Court deemed the intrusion on Fourth Amendment interests to be quite limited, even if officers acted on the basis of the Mexican appearance of the occupants in referring motorists to a secondary inspection area for questioning, whereas the elimination of the practice would deny to the Government its only practicable way to apprehend smuggled aliens and to deter the practice. Similarly, outside of the border/aliens context, the Court has upheld use of fixed "sobriety" checkpoints at which all motorists are briefly stopped for preliminary questioning and observation for signs of intoxication. Michigan Dep't of State Police v. Sitz, 496 U.S. 444 (1990).


Any other work I can do for ya:s0114::s0114::s0114:

http://law.onecle.com/constitution/amendment-04/18-border-searches.html
 
And he's saying he was burned by the tazer wires. I have friends who have been tazed and you don't get burns like he showed you get a baseball sized bruise and a dart stuck in your skin. Supposedly there was tazer wires stuck in his car. How did the wires come out of the tazer? or out of the darts?
In the video of the tazer marks there no penetration, just a spot.
This guy is obviously out for a pay day. I think he's just another guy trying to get on TV and show the "monsters" who are in power.
And it doesn't matter if your "begging for mercy" as he says. If they were at the point they were tazing you, beating you, and as he says torturing him, they won't stop untill you do what they say. Put your hands behind your back!

I can't believe a word this guy says unless I see the video.

In either video those BPAs had every right to do what they did.
Most likely if people refuse, they are either hiding something or too stupid to comply.
 
I hate to say it but i am more convinced today than ever before that this country is screwed.

When border patrol agents acting on unconstitutional laws can beat the crap out of an american citizen who is traveling on a freeway inside our borders and then gain this much defense for their actions on a forum that was designed for people to share their love of the second ammendment, we are lost.
 
Please don't take this the wrong way, but the kind of arguments I'm seeing here could also be used to support the BATF forcibly confiscating firearms from law-abiding citizens if the government ever enacted a law banning civilian ownership of firearms that was deemed legal under the constitution by a left-leaning SCOTUS. :s0131:
As I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread, given our current laws, I would always comply with LEOs - even when their actions might skirt the boundaries of the constitution - because I respect the fact that they are human beings dealing with the dregs of society most of the time, and they are simply following the orders of their superiors. However, I also said that it is essential for citizens to constantly remind law enforcement that it is the people who grant them the authority they have, and a requirement of that authority is that they never lose sight of their obligation to uphold and defend the constitutional rights of the civilians they are sworn to serve and protect.
There are times when laws can be wrong. I'm not saying this is one of those times, but we should always be examining the constitutionality (and dare I say morality?) of the laws the government enacts, lest we find ourselves chained - as law abiding citizens - by the laws of a tyrannical government.
Remember, the high court in Nazi Germany passed a law allowing the gassing of Jews in concentration camps, and there were plenty of soldiers and law-enforcement personnel willing to carry it out, but that certainly never made it right.
 
I believe this forum is for people who love guns, and their right to have/carry them.
I fell bad that people have put this country in a place where were afraid to protect our citizens for fear that a bad guys feeling will get hurt.
I think we need to stop hiding behide our freedoms, for the sake of proving a point or gaining some money.

These people are the reason I can't protect myself in my own house because some guy will sue me because I shot him for trying to kill me.
Our govt, courts, and law enforcement are so afraid of people like this they can't enforce the laws without worrying about getting sued for keeping them safe.
Were in a time in history our freedom to be safe is at risk for hurting someone's feelings.

I agree this is a fine line, your in a position you feel like your rights are being abused. But it makes you safer. I can't go around fighting crime. I have to depend on Police to keep me safe, to keep MY FAMILY safe. I will comply with them so I can be sure their doing their jobs.
What's the alternative?
You let people run the streets without the law? Cops are no more than hall monitors? What other choice do we have? We are in a dangerous society that gets progressively worse by the day. And I believe it gets worse because of the justice systems lack of ability to be strict on the people who break the law. And everyone is afraid of what the public will think, and if the criminal is getting a fair treatment. I'm sorry but I think the moment you turn on society, society should be able to turn on you. But then we have anarchy. Witch trials.

So what's the right thing to do?
Who do we side with?

I personally would rather be on the side of the law then the people who weaken our society. But it's all how you view it.
We lose either way. I think we have to get used to that idea. We cannot win.
 
I believe this forum is for people who love guns, and their right to have/carry them.
I fell bad that people have put this country in a place where were afraid to protect our citizens for fear that a bad guys feeling will get hurt.
I think we need to stop hiding behide our freedoms, for the sake of proving a point or gaining some money.

These people are the reason I can't protect myself in my own house because some guy will sue me because I shot him for trying to kill me.
Our govt, courts, and law enforcement are so afraid of people like this they can't enforce the laws without worrying about getting sued for keeping them safe.
Were in a time in history our freedom to be safe is at risk for hurting someone's feelings.

I agree this is a fine line, your in a position you feel like your rights are being abused. But it makes you safer. I can't go around fighting crime. I have to depend on Police to keep me safe, to keep MY FAMILY safe. I will comply with them so I can be sure their doing their jobs.
What's the alternative?
You let people run the streets without the law? Cops are no more than hall monitors? What other choice do we have? We are in a dangerous society that gets progressively worse by the day. And I believe it gets worse because of the justice systems lack of ability to be strict on the people who break the law. And everyone is afraid of what the public will think, and if the criminal is getting a fair treatment. I'm sorry but I think the moment you turn on society, society should be able to turn on you. But then we have anarchy. Witch trials.

So what's the right thing to do?
Who do we side with?

I personally would rather be on the side of the law then the people who weaken our society. But it's all how you view it.
We lose either way. I think we have to get used to that idea. We cannot win.

You're speaking Anarchy but the subject is Tyranny.
 
Border Searches.—"That searches made at the border, pursuant to the longstanding right of the sovereign to protect itself by stopping and examining persons and property crossing into this country, are reasonable simply by virtue of the fact that they occur at the border, should, by now, require no extended demonstration."276

United States v. Ramsey, 431 U.S. 606, 616 (1977) (sustaining search of incoming mail). See also Illinois v. Andreas, 463 U.S. 765 (1983) (opening by customs inspector of locked container shipped from abroad).

Authorized by the First Congress,277

Act of July 31, 1789, ch. 5, §§ 23, 24, 1 Stat. 43. See 19 U.S.C. §§ 507, 1581, 1582.

the customs search in these circumstances requires no warrant, no probable cause, not even the showing of some degree of suspicion that accompanies even investigatory stops.278

Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132, 154 (1925); United States v. Thirty-Seven Photographs, 402 U.S. 363, 376 (1971); Almeida-Sanchez v. United States, 413 U.S. 266, 272 (1973).

Moreover, while prolonged detention of travelers beyond the routine customs search and inspection must be justified by the Terry standard of reasonable suspicion having a particularized and objective basis,279

United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531 (1985) (approving warrantless detention incommunicado for more than 24 hours of traveler suspected of alimentary canal drug smuggling).

Terry protections as to the length and intrusiveness of the search do not apply.280
Id. A traveler suspected of alimentary canal drug smuggling was strip searched, and then given a choice between an abdominal x-ray or monitored bowel movements. Because the suspect chose the latter option, the court disavowed decision as to "what level of suspicion, if any, is required for . . . strip, body cavity, or involuntary x-ray searches." Id. at 541 n.4.
Inland stoppings and searches in areas away from the borders are a different matter altogether. Thus, in Almeida-Sanchez v. United States,281

413 U.S. 266 (1973). Justices White, Blackmun, Rehnquist, and Chief Justice Burger would have found the search reasonable upon the congressional determination that searches by such roving patrols were the only effective means to police border smuggling. Id. at 285. Justice Powell, concurring, argued in favor of a general, administrative warrant authority not tied to particular vehicles, much like the type of warrant suggested for noncriminal administrative inspections of homes and commercial establishments for health and safety purposes, id. at 275, but the Court has not yet had occasion to pass on a specific case. See United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543, 547 n.2, 562 n.15 (1976).

the Court held that a warrantless stop and search of defendant's automobile on a highway some 20 miles from the border by a roving patrol lacking probable cause to believe that the vehicle contained illegal aliens violated the Fourth Amendment. Similarly, the Court invalidated an automobile search at a fixed checkpoint well removed from the border; while agreeing that a fixed checkpoint probably gave motorists less cause for alarm than did roving patrols, the Court nonetheless held that the invasion of privacy entailed in a search was just as intrusive and must be justified by a showing of probable cause or consent.282

United States v. Ortiz, 422 U.S. 891 (1975).
On the other hand, when motorists are briefly stopped, not for purposes of a search but in order that officers may inquire into their residence status, either by asking a few questions or by checking papers, different results are achieved, so long as the stops are not truly random. Roving patrols may stop vehicles for purposes of a brief inquiry, provided officers are "aware of specific articulable facts, together with rational inferences from those facts, that reasonably warrant suspicion" that an automobile contains illegal aliens; in such a case the interference with Fourth Amendment rights is "modest" and the law enforcement interests served are significant.283

United States v. Brignoni-Ponce, 422 U.S. 873 (1975). However, stopping of defendant's car solely because the officers observed the Mexican appearance of the occupants was unjustified. Id. at 886. Contrast United States v. Cortez, 449 U.S. 411 (1981), where border agents did have grounds for reasonable suspicion that the vehicle they stopped contained illegal aliens.

Fixed checkpoints provide additional safeguards; here officers may halt all vehicles briefly in order to question occupants even in the absence of any reasonable suspicion that the particular vehicle contains illegal aliens.284
United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543 (1976). The Court deemed the intrusion on Fourth Amendment interests to be quite limited, even if officers acted on the basis of the Mexican appearance of the occupants in referring motorists to a secondary inspection area for questioning, whereas the elimination of the practice would deny to the Government its only practicable way to apprehend smuggled aliens and to deter the practice. Similarly, outside of the border/aliens context, the Court has upheld use of fixed "sobriety" checkpoints at which all motorists are briefly stopped for preliminary questioning and observation for signs of intoxication. Michigan Dep't of State Police v. Sitz, 496 U.S. 444 (1990).


Any other work I can do for ya:s0114::s0114::s0114:

http://law.onecle.com/constitution/amendment-04/18-border-searches.html

Long day I will digest this tomorrow, thanks for the work:s0155:
 
I agree 100% with you clearconscience. I totally respect and understand LEOs. I would always comply with them because they are just doing their jobs. They have wives and families that they want to go home to at the end of their day. Most LEOs are very good people - I've personally known quite a few - and I completely sympathize with them given the crap they have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. Of course there are a few bad apples out there - as there are in any walk-of-life.
Their job is to enforce the laws of this country. To keep them safe, and to ensure they always go home with a clear conscience, we the people have to enact laws that would never put LEOs in a position where they would have to violate the spirit of their oath to "serve and protect". I would also hope that if such a law were ever enacted, LEOs would have the moral character to refuse enforcing it.
 
this guy was certainly a jerk, went into it antagonising... and yet, the cops got WAY out of hand. The bit with the "drug dog hitting" on his car sounds VERY fishy.... like someone said, they go nuts... and the fact they refused a redo, or (what would have been reasonable and considerate) have a different handler bring out a different dog..,common practice whenever there is any question. My strong "read" at this point is they needed "probable cause" to "justify" a search, and so made some up by bringing a dog out.

Now the guy IS plainly in the wrong by refusing to show his identification.. ANY LEO can ask anyone at any time and place for this. And, as the court decisions show, at a fixed inland checkpoint, this is standard, and not intrusive. I'm OK with that--- and believe it to be within the bounds of law.

BUT.. when they started getting rough, it was party time for them.... and let's face it, cops DO go postal on occasion. perticularly those who are treated badly by their organisations (it is plain that border patrol officers have some of the lowest moral anywhere... even lower than WSP). Any towtruck operator, and almost any cabbie, can wield a slim jom so well and quickly you'd think he's got the key from fifty feet away. These guys had no real reason to bust out windows. No reason at all they couldn't use something like a slim jom to open the door... and they'd have a safer time of it anyway. Once the glass is broken out, its all over the place, dangerous, and NOW they have to reach inside the car and unlock/open the door. Far easier and more secure to simply slimjim the doorlock and yank it wide open. Even then, the ONLY "probable cause" they had is that the guy was uncooperative. THAT is NOT probable cause, it's certain irritation... but no basis in law.

I lived and went to school in San Diego County years ago, and had dealings with the several border crossings manned by US officers. Southbound Tijuana's port of entry was manned by San Diego Police, who were generally the biggest meanies they could possibly get away with being. MANY incidents, and the City Council consistenly refused any attempts to "reel them in". The northbound crossings all across Baja California were manned by what used to be INS. Generally surly and obnoxious idiots. Even when WE tried to be courteous, respectful cooperative.. we were often guilty on the basis of breathing. VERY obnoxious and provocative. Hey, I wasn't even a long haired hippie dope smoker yet. I even wore shoes!!! Answered Yes Sir, No Sir, and the whole bit.
I've also had serious run ins with the jerks manning the permanent station in the middle of Camp Pendleton Marine Base, north County San Diego. Traffic backed up for two miles coming up to it, obnoxious and belligerent idiots being snarly. Of course, once I could talk like a gringo, show them a US based driving license, unhesitatingly give my city of birth and citizenship, and answer "NO" to "are you carrying any illegal substances" they had no further grounds to detain me.

I really do think the answer is to SEAL THE DAMN BORDER, like I've said before. It doesn't take a man every two hundred yards... electronic devices can do a lot (they have been used at the International Boundary with Canada for thirty years now, to good effect, and in many very wild and rural areas where guards could be stationed every fifty FEET and still not see each other...... the mostly wide open wasteland that comprised the border with Mexico would be far easier. It would eliminate the need for, and the abuse perpetrated at, the inland stations..... BUT, until the COngress and the Executive Branch decide to spend some of our tax dollars on that instead of bailing out stupid and dishonest private businesses, we'll continue with the present inland stations.

The guy did break the law in refusing to provide suitable identification. HAD he done that right off, taking it out and placing it against his closed window so the cops could see it, (the law does not say "hand it to them", it only says "show it to them" so they can see, and read, the required information.) he'd at least have the high moral ground in that he complied with the law. Refusing that, the cops WERE justified in detaining him... but NOT wantonly destroying personal property (his car) and perpetrating violence on his person. Since the guy failed to comply with the law (identifying himself as suits the operator of a motor vehicle) HE broke the law. Bottom line, he blew his chances of coming out on top. Should have known better. The dog thing is a scam.... manufacturing "probable cause" out of thin air, and likely won't stand. Nothing was found in the car. SINCE the guy failed at the most basic level (ID when demanded, a lawful request) the courts will have to throw out his suit for violating his rights. Sad, because there certainly IS far too much abuse along these lines.....
I do find myself wondering what his REAL motivation is.. what makes the guy do this. He lives in the area, maybe he's just fed up with the nuisance the checkpoint creates. And far too many of those guys act like goons with a burr under their saddleblanket.
 
I really do think the answer is to SEAL THE DAMN BORDER, like I've said before. It doesn't take a man every two hundred yards... electronic devices can do a lot (they have been used at the International Boundary with Canada for thirty years now, to good effect, and in many very wild and rural areas where guards could be stationed every fifty FEET and still not see each other...... the mostly wide open wasteland that comprised the border with Mexico would be far easier.


I'm a minimalist, I would just set out land mines.
 
the dog dosnt have a secret handshake
when they hit on something they go ape
if the dog had hit on somethin he would be complaining about how the dog tryed to claw its way threw his trunk and messed up his paintjob

I did not read all 13 pages of this thread so I apologize if this has already been discussed. :D

Actually in many cases the dogs are in fact trained to do a specific action. I saw one dog that would sit down when it hit on drugs, the dog was in and out of the back seat area of the guys car, passenger seat area and then sat right on the ground at the open front door. Sure enough, there were drugs stashed behind the panel at the drivers feet. This was on a show called "Busted" on MTV. I was shocked, I also thought that the dogs barked or "went ape" but I guess not.
 

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